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H. OF R.]

Navigation and Impost Law.

[APRIL 30, 1830. France, sir, minds be put in the hands of any one man living. The gentle- and all the arts and efforts of England cannot divert her man tells us that the whole manufacturing interest is in the from her own independent course. hands of an aristocracy, who oppress and grind to dust her own concerns. She is not eternally dabbling in the This shows clearly and affairs of other nations. She understands her own true the democracy of the nation. plainly that he knows nothing about either the aristocracy interests, and pursues them without troubling her neighor democracy of the country. I say that the great agri- bors. But up the Baltic we can have free trade. Penncultural interest north of Mason and Dixon's line, and a sylvania can send corn to Dantzie! That is flattering! solid proportion south of it, are in favor of the protecting What a noble thought! But we can have the trade of Por It would be a grand affair! So, for policy-the tariff. If the gentleman wants to find friends tugal. That the gentleman seems to suppose would be and advocates to that policy, let him go into every hamlet every thing to us.

and house in Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, New Eng- these fancied benefits we are to invest the President with land, and he will find a vast majority in its favor. Talk the most extraordinary powers. The great interests of of the aristocracy of the country! It is the real democracy this country to be regulated by the caprice or policy of of the United States, who are the friends and advocates of any nation in the world, and the President compelled to the protecting system. Not British agents-Liverpool execute it. The market of Portugal! what does the genmerchants. Talk of aristocracy! The farmers, the agri- tleman really mean? If there is any hidden object, let the If the measure should culturists, are the men who support the tariff. They are gentlemen lift up the veil-let him draw back the curthe men. Why They well know that the manufacturer tain-tell us, at once, his object. I would not trust the gives a market for their productions, which no foreign na- power he proposes, to any man. tion allows. They consider the manufacturers as their pass, I have the fullest confidence that the present Chief agents, at home, in their own country. The farming in- Magistrate would exercise his power and discretion as fairterest knows this. If our farmers did not know that their ly and soundly as any man living. The interests of his interests, their salvation, did not almost depend on the ma- country would never be sacrificed for the benefit of any nufacturing system, they would be willing to give it up. other. This is a subject that belongs to Congress; to the Sir, the gentleman openly avows that his object in bring representatives of the people. Here let it be retained. ing this bill forward is not for discussion or action this Never give it up. I hope the day will never arrive, when session, and perhaps not the next. What, then, in the we will place such power in the hands of any Executive. But [said Mr. M.] the gentleman declares that the bill name of heaven, is his intended object? Sir, I think I know. Indeed, for some time, I have been aware that it proposes reciprocity-only reciprocity. Let England put has been in contemplation. The object manifestly is, her duties at thirty per cent, and we will do the same. to have the measure hang over our protecting policy in The scheme looks well. How will it work? The disparity terrorem, like a portentous cloud. It is for the purpose of will be as great as now exists. Thirty per cent. on the scattering doubts, and fears, and apprehensions among flour of Ohio, Pennsylvania. Now see, sir. Thirty per our manufacturing interests, and to invite foreign nations cent.-reciprocal on the face What will be the expense to press down upon us with all their power, and over- of sending a barrel of flour from Louisville, in Kentucky, whelm our system of national independence. The gen- by New Orleans, to Liverpool Why, sir, it would cost tleman seems to want that foreign nations should believe more to send a barrel of flour, worth five dollars in the that this Government is trembling and shivering in its New York market, to Liverpool, than it would cost to course wishes to see them interfering in the domestic bring one thousand-five thousand dollars' worth of fo regulations of this country. Sir, I cannot, will not, con- reign manufactures into this country. Equalize duties in sent to see such a measure, brought forward under such this way, and a vast proportion of the agricultural interests auspices. held up to terrify and alarm our own country, of this country is ruined at a single blow. How much does and give hopes and expectations to another. The gen- it cost England to send her broadcloths and gimlets to tleman says he does not expect that the bill will make the New York! How much to send our heavy productions to smallest impression on England. Good nation! What? England? Every mau of common sense well knows. The Make no impression on England? I supposed the gentle-difference may be five hundred per cent. against us. Thir man considered England a perfect model for our imita- ty per cent. on lace-thirty per cent, on flour! Recipro tion; that free trade was her motto, and that she really city with a vengeance! The farming interest of the United The gentleman tells us about a tremendous explosion, meant what she had published to the world! that she was States will not be deluded by such a show of reciprocity. ready to throw her doors wide open to the commerce of all nations. What! England opposed to free trade if the friends of the tariff policy persist. This means, in Monstrous! And even the gentleman from New York ad- plain English, rebellion. Are we to be driven from our mits it! Surprising! He tells us that the measure is in-path of duty-from the true interests of the country-by tended to help the laboring classes of England-the de-threats of a tremendous explosion Is a minority on the mocrats of England. This is a new idea. The democrats floor of this House to tell a majority, you shall submit to of England! He says they are crying for bread, and she our will, or the most dreadful consequences will follow! wants to feed them. His feelings are all engaged for the For one, I say, plump and plain, I will not be driven from Sir, I am for sustaining the de- my course by such language. What will be the condition democrats of England. We have recently heard of the tymocrats of the United States. So people will differ. On of this country, when a minority overawes a majority by whom do these democrats of England depend? Why, I threats and menaces? suppose of course, on the democratic manufacturers of ranny of a majority-a strange kind of a tyranny to be sure. that country. All democrats, then! Our manufacturers, But we are called on to submit to the tyranny of a mino in this country, are represented as aristocrats, nabobs, rity. When a minority can, on any question, by threat monopolists in England, it seems, they are all demo- and menace, overawe the majority, this country must be crats. Sir, these English democrats have but little affec- reduced to the most extraordinary condition. It is worse tion for their brother democrats this side of the water. than no Government at all. We come here as the repreThey are hostile to our prosperity. They tremble at the sentatives of the people of all parts of the Union, for the sight of a rising manufactory in the United States. They, purpose of mingling our common counsels, and deciding like the gentleman from New York, would like to see the on the course best calculated to promote the great interests domestic industry of this country palsied, prostrated. of the nation our common country. The sound discre The gentleman says the bill will have no operation on tion of every member ought to be exercised. We must France. Why, sir, we all well know that. France minds finally decide. As the representatives of the people of this her own business. She has adopted the protecting policy; Union, we are called upon to act. How are we to decide

APRIL 30, 1830.]

Navigation and Impost Law.

[H. of R.

was not without hope that the gentleman from Massachusetts might change his opinions, again become an advocate of free trade-at all events, give the friends of this measure a fair opportunity to defend its merits.

Mr. WAYNE again rose, but said he had no desire to go into the merits of the bill at this time, if it should take such a direction as would bring it up regularly for discussion hereafter.

on any great question, whether it relates to the established policy of the country, or to any new measure presented for deliberation and action? Is a majority to shrink back, give way, surrender, when a minority demands a right to rule! Submit to the tyranny of a minority!-a strange despot under a Government, when its fundamental rule is that a majority should govern. What would such a Government be worth? A minority rule? This is the essence of aristocracy. In plain truth, sir, if Representatives cannot come Mr. GORHAM said, the gentleman from New York here, and exercise their own independent opinions, without must think him very sincere, if, after the extravagant but being awed and menaced into submission by those who altogether unmerited compliments of the gentleman, he may happen to differ, the Government is not worth pre- still persisted in his opposition to this bill, as a measure of serving. Its republican character is gone-it is not worth the most extraordinary character ever proposed in this a fig. I always respect the minority. I am in it often. We House. Sir, [said Mr. G.] this bill contains provisions which are all, often, in a minority. When we are, shall we cry in their operation will derange our whole revenue system, out tyranny, oppression, abuse the Government, curse it, and change all our commercial relations at home and and let it go? If so, we can tear it in pieces in an hour, abroad, introducing at the same time an endless series of any day. If such is the wish of any portion of this country, frauds and perjuries. It transfers, too, to the President they may be indulged for all me. What is a Government, almost the whole control over the commerce and revenue a republican Government worth, where a majority is ruled of the country. If practicable, which I doubt, it will inby a minority? I should like to be informed. If this is not troduce a principle into commercial policy, mischievous in aristocracy, I do not understand the term. The most per- the highest degree. This discussion [said Mr. G.] had fect tyranny is when the fewest rule-I may be mistaken. arisen so suddenly, and the hour was so nearly expired I thought I had some republican principles-I may have when the debate must terminate for to-day, that he should been mistaken. Whatever may be my errors of opinion, be able hardly more than to mention a few of the most I feel anxious to sustain the interests of my own country-striking objections to the principles and provisions of the I want to see Liverpool the other side of the Atlantic. Mr. bill. But, [said Mr. G.] before I do this, I think it proM. concluded by again moving to lay the bill on the table. per to say a word or two touching the proceedings of the Mr. WAYNE, of Georgia, a member of the Committee Committee on Commerce upon this bill. At our last meeton Commerce, said the gentleman ought to give an opportunity for reply to his misapprehensions.

Mr. MALLARY said, he had done no more than reply to the gentleman from New York, but he again withdrew his motion to lay the bill on the table.

Mr. BATES, of Massachusetts, hoped the gentleman from Georgia, when he had finished the remarks which he desired to make on the subject, would allow the friends of the protecting system an opportunity of discussing the sub-ing principles altogether new into our revenue system, and ject and defending their views.

Mr. WAYNE. That is what the friends of the bill desire. Let it take its ordinary course, and it can then be fully discussed. He hoped, therefore, the opposition to it in this stage would be withdrawn, and the bill be committed. He yielded the floor to

ing upon public matters, three or four weeks ago, and not more than fifteen or twenty minutes before we were to separate to take our seats in the House, the honorable chairman of our committee [Mr. CAMBRELENG] handed me the draught of this bill, (though I think with a different title,) asking if I agreed that such a bill should be reported. After looking through it, I replied, that it was a sort of consolidated repeal of the tariff laws, that it was introducour commercial relations at home and abroad, &c. &c.; and it would be in vain to report such a bill to the House, which had rejected much less objectionable propositions. The rest of the committee having looked into the bill, the chairman called for our opinions, and, by a vote of four to three, the committee being full, it was ordered to be reported to the House. I had reason to be surprised that a measure which was to work a complete revolution in our commerce and revenue, should be thus hastily adopted. But, sir, I will hasten to state a few of the many objections to this extraordinary scheme. In the first place, it reduces at once all duties to thirty per cent. ad valorem, and to the extent of that reduction is a repeal of the tariff laws, not, The SPEAKER interrupted him, by stating that the indeed, as it may suit the interest and convenience of our Clerk had informed him that the bill had received its own Government, or our own citizens, but when the will second reading by its title, which fact the chair had over- or interest of any foreign nation may require it. The looked; and the question being now simply on the commit-mere reduction of duties I do not regard as the worst asment, it precluded a discussion of the merits of the bill.

Mr. GORHAM, of Massachusetts, who was decidedly opposed to the bill, but he wished it not to be laid on the table, as that would preclude discussion; and he thought an opportunity should be afforded for exposing the impolicy of the measure.

Mr. WAYNE then rose to proceed with his remarks on the bill; but

Mr. WAYNE bowed to the decision of the Chair; and, after some under conversation between other members, Mr. GORHAM, for the purpose of opening the bill to discussion, moved its indefinite postponement.

Mr. CAMBRELENG regretted that he had not on this occasion, the powerful aid of the gentleman from Massachusetts. He remembered, nine years ago, when that gentleman was a captain among the advocates of free trade. The House was electrified by that gentleman for near three hours; and without intending any disparagement to a distinguished gentleman who now occupies another body, he must say, that he heard on that day what he thought then, and still thought, the most able, eloquent, and convincing argument he ever listened to, in favor of the broad principles of free trade. He hoped that the gentleman from Massachusetts would vary his motion so as to postpone the question till the first Monday in January next, when he

VOL. VI-109.

pects of this part of the bill. Sir, it is, that foreign nations are to judge for us, and not we for ourselves; that all specific duties are, with regard to some nations, to be charged in ad valorem duties and reduced, while, with regard to others, they are to remain specific, and at their old rate; and that the duties on articles of the same kind, from dif ferent countries, are not only of different rates, but differently estimated. And then, too, what numberless frauds will be practised in fixing this thirty per cent. ad valorem, by appraisements without end, not only in our own ports, but in those of the nations which may come into this strange and novel scheme of reciprocity?

Time does not permit me now to say any thing upon the extraordinary principle of transferring to the Executive Department, as this bill would substantially do, almost the whole control over our foreign and domestic commercial relations. Nor can I now enumerate half the mischiefs of a different character, which would result from the adop

H. of R.]

Navigation and Impost Law.-Judge Peck.

[MAY 1, 1830.

tions, and to presume that they acted within the sphere of such a reference can be made. All the apprehensions their jurisdiction and duty. It is nothing more than a prin- from this quarter may be quieted by the examination of ciple of comity and courtesy-one which our courts of the cases referred to the courts for decision. The limits. admiralty are in the practice of acting upon, and which tion in the treaty, it is well known, was introduced exhas been repeatedly recognised by the Supreme Court of pressly with a view to exclude the grants to the Duke of the United States. The King of Spain, and his officers, Alagon, De Vargas, and Count Punon Rostro, and no have as much right to disregard the acts of our tribunals, other. It was so declared at the time of making the treaty, as we have those of Spain, on the principles of national law; by those who negotiated it. The idea of excluding any and if these claims are denied on such grounds as are now other was indignantly repelled by the Spanish minister, urged, they will have more reason to question the justice and never insisted on by our Government. The President of our decisions, than we have ever yet had to condemn of the United States (Mr. Monroe) informed Congress, in theirs. I am neither the defender nor the apologist of an executive message, that such was the object of that the Spanish authorities. The special court appointed by provision. Although such was the view of those who nethis Govermnent, having the archives before them, have gotiated the treaty, that clause has been so rigidly enforced, received this evidence, and confirmed these claims, not on as to exclude from confirmation every claim derived from the authority to grant subsequent to the limitation in the the Spanish Government when they possessed the sovetreaty, but upon a concession made ten or twenty years reignty of the provinces, between the 24th of January, before. The performance of the condition only has been 1818, and July, 1821, when the provinces were delivered. proved in due form after the time. The honorable gen- All these claims were intended to be, and ought to be tleman should recollect that the authorities of Spain were confirmed; but by the use of general words, to get rid of not interdicted by the treaty from the exercise of any ju- the large ones, these, too, have been rejected. Not con risdiction, or the execution of any of their functions, until tent with this advantage, thus secured against a population the delivery of the country to the United States. The pro- that Spain was about to transfer, and about whose rights vision is, that all grants made posterior to that date shall the King and his ministers were somewhat indifferent, ren be void. In this report, all grants of that description are dered more so from a conviction that the inhabitants of the declared void. The class proposed to be stricken out were ceded territories desired the change, we are now about to made prior, but witnesses were sworn, and proved a settle-strike out one-half of what has found favor under the rigid ment according to the terms of the concession subsequent construction of the commissioners, because a Spanish ly. The commissioners of West Florida, in every case of governor had the witnesses sworn and the testimony rethis kind, confirmed the claim. In the abstracts of the corded. I cannot persuade myself that this House is preconfirmations of that board, in the Executive Documents pared to sanction a principle so unjust and odious. of 1824-25, which I now hold in my hand, it will be seen The whole amount of land in these thirty small claims that where concessions and royal titles were both made, does not exceed fourteen thousand aeres, which is not the one prior and the other subsequent to the 24th of Janu-worth the expenses of this House during the time of this ary, 1818, we confirmed the title upon the concession. debate. If these claims are stricken out, what is proposed This was done by the commissioners of East Florida, and to be done? Is a new board to be organized, after a delay by the register and receiver in their report of 1828-all of which have been approved and confirmed by acts of Congress. The principle here is precisely the same, and it is for this House to say whether they were bound to summon witnesses to prove that which had been already proved before a Spanish tribunal, the evidence of which was before them. It would have been an act of supererogation, a useless consumption of time.

of nine years in the adjustment of these titles? If a new board is to be created, their expenses will be greater than the value of the land. The public surveys will be stopped, the private property cannot be separated from the public, the population of the territory will be retarded, and the most mischievous consequences result from the delay.

cannot comprehend. The cry of fraud at this period of the session, the denunciation of all that is of Spanish origin, is enough to overturn the most beneficial measures; but I trust that this House, from the confidence reposed in its own tribunal, from the long delay and injustice already done to these claimants, and from a regard for the territory itself, will not recommit this bill, and produce confusion in the country, and certain ruin among its inhabitants.

Those who are here from the new States well know the difficulties and embarrassments arising from unsettled titles The next ground of objection is, that we shall establish to the country itself; and those who have never seen it, can a dangerous precedent for the courts, which will be inju-form but a very imperfect conception of the misery of purrious to the public interests; and this is seriously urged suing, for ten years, an uncertain title in the tribunals of s upon Congress as a reason why this bill should be recom- country, the language and forms of which the petitioner mitted. Šir, it is the first time I ever knew that a legislative act was to be received as a precedent for the admissibility of evidence in courts of justice. Congress may declare that every man may make affidavit to the genuineness of his own grant. Will that justify a court in allowing a man to be a witness in his own case? The distinction between a legislative body and a judicial tribunal, the one governed by considerations of policy, and the other by fixed laws, seems not to have occurred to the gentleman. Who ever heard of the decisions of our committees on the evidence offered to them being quoted before judges as a precedent for their decisions? What Congress, in its legislative discretion, chooses to do, has never yet been, and never will be, a precedent for the courts. The courts might as well attempt to pass an appropriation act, as to say they will confirm claims because Congress, confirmed them. I need not pursue this part of the subject further, because the question can never be made in the courts. All the cases which are or can be preBented to them are now printed by order of this House, and now upon my table, to which access can be had by every member. There is not among that number a single case in which a royal title is given after 24th of January, 1818; and if the courts were to look to legislative acts as precedents for them, the case will never occur in which

SATURDAY, MAY 1.

The House resumed the consideration of the bill to amend the navigation laws of the United States, reported by Mr. CAMBŘELENG, from the Committee on Com merce, yesterday.

The question recurred on the motion made by Mr. GORHAM, that the further consideration of the said bill be postponed indefinitely.

Mr. WAYNE, of Georgia, rose and addressed the House until the expiration of the hour, in support of the policy proposed by the bill. He had not concluded when the hour expired.

JUDGE PECK.

Mr. BUCHANAN moved to postpone the orders of th