and then you admit they would have a little more pay, and you say that they would be less under your control?-I was wrong in saying they would have nothing to do; I think they would have very little to do.

In point of fact, the relative situation that you would stand in with regard to them, as the employer of them, in the name of the commissioners, would be totally changed; that is, you would not have the same facility of selecting your men, or of removing and dismissing them?—I should not. And there is another point; most of my men work by contract; you could not take them away from their contract work, and make them act as constables.

How many labourers are generally employed on the road?-About 117.

Are they principally employed by contract?-I should say two thirds, at least.

Through the year?—Through the year.

In what way?-Breaking stones by contract; scraping the roads by contract.

Then, in point of fact, you do find this to be an economical and efficient method of carrying on the business of the road?-I do.

More than by employing day labourers?—Yes.

Introducing this system of police would be a derangement of this plan of contract which you have found so effectual?-Yes.

How do you make that out? If your men work by contract, and you pay them so much for so much broken stones, if they are taken off that work they do less by contract, and you pay them less; how is it possible you can make out that you lose by it, or that it would be inconvenient?-Because the men would give up their contracts; they would not be annoyed in this manner; it would entirely derange our system; somebody must pay them for lost time.

You state that these men are men who work by contract, therefore you only pay them in proportion to what they do; then you turn round and say, that those men, if employed elsewhere, would be dissatisfied, because they would not be able to fulfil their contracts; but would they not get remuneration? If a man gets 3s. a week more for being a police constable, and gets 1s. less a week by contract, why should you be dissatisfied, or why should he?-Because it would take that Is. away from the trust fund; we should have to pay that man for acting as constable, and while he was acting as constable he would be neglecting our work; it would be giving each man two employers.

Suppose your men were liable to be called away for any other duty, could you undertake to say you could discharge your orders as punctually and as effectually?—I could

not.

Do you mean to say, if any of your men got drunk, and did not fulfil their contract, that would put you or the road to any inconvenience ?-It certainly would, though we do not pay them for drunkenness.

If any of your men, in consequence of getting drunk, could not fulfil their contract on that day, do you mean to say that a loss of that man's contract for a day would be an inconvenience to your trust?-Not that individual man, because I could get another man to do his work.

Then supposing this man was called on to act as a police constable, and did not do his work for one day, how could it be any inconvenience to you ?-I conceive that I should have that man's wages to pay.

But you said just now you paid by contract?-If I do not pay him, who does? Somebody must pay him.

We are speaking of this man who does your work by contract; if he does not fulfil his contract you do not pay him?-No.

Then how can you say you have got to pay him if he is off the road?—If we did not pay him it would make no difference.

Suppose a labourer was appointed to act as constable, and that in consequence the power of dismissing him was taken away when you thought proper, would not that be attended with very great inconvenience?-Decidedly.

Could you manage your labourers if you had not the power of instantly dismissing any of them?—No.

Then any plan of interference, by appointing labourers to act as policemen, must necessarily lead to that inconvenient consequence?—If it prevented me having the power of dismissing them, it would.

JOHN M'NEILL, Esq., Civil Engineer, (employed on the Holyhead Road under the Commissioners of Woods and Forests,) called in and examined.

Have you made improvements in your instrument for trying the draughts of carriages on roads?-Yes; I have one now under construction that will be very superior to those I first constructed, as that required a professional man to work it, and take down the results. In the present one, if you send it along the road by a common servant, you can get a complete and exact state of the road; as to its resistance to draught, and the power required to draw a carriage over it, and whereabouts that power is exerted, where it is out of repair, and where it is in a good state; it will mark the precise situation of that part of the road.

How is this information given?-By a line drawn on a sheet of paper by a pencil.

As the carriage moves along?-Yes.

Are you still satisfied of the principle of your machine

being a correct one, as to ascertaining the draughts of carriages?—I am quite certain of its being perfectly correct, for we have tried it in some cases, and compared it with a weight hanging over a pulley, and the results were the same. It is only in certain cases where a weight over a pulley could be applied; it could not be done practically over a road of any length.

Has anything occurred as to the soundness of your principle being controverted by other engineers ?—No.

Is it generally adopted by them as a correct machine? -Yes, and referred to in very many cases. In France there has been a petition to the Chamber of Deputies, founded on my experiments, relative to the mode of ascertaining the draught of carriages, and the saving by using springs.

You were the author of that algebraical calculation delivered in the Lords?-Yes.

Does it correspond with the results made by the machine? It was founded on experiments made by the machine; it was a formula that would give the power required to draw a carriage over a road in a section of that road, from data determined by experiments made by the machine.

Is your machine calculated to give the draught on setting the body in motion, or when it is in motion?Both.

Then it would appear that your former calculations, as to different effects of different roads on the draughts of carriages, are correct?—Yes, quite correct; and they have been confirmed by very many experiments I have made since I was examined before the Committee of the House of Lords.

Then, in fact, that is the general conclusion, that a road is good for its object, namely, of diminishing the draught of a carriage, in the proportion that it is hard and

smooth? The great advantages of the roads appearing by the machine is certainly in proportion to their solidity and their strength, and their want of yielding. If it could be a perfectly solid mass of stone or metal, the least resistance would be presented; that is shown both on stone tramways and on metal tramways, and metal rails. There are some metal tramways laid in Glasgow on rather a steep hill, and it is not at all unusual for a horse to take from two to three tons; that arises merely from the saving in the resistance of the surface, friction being lessened.

That is from the smoothness of the surface?—Yes, from the smoothness and hardness.

So that if clean material of any road nine inches thick were properly beat down, that will not yield?-Nine inches will yield very much.

What, on an old road of nine inches thick ?-Yes, with heavy waggons. One of the great advantages arising from Mr. Telford's system of forming roads by large stone pavements, is from the fact that one point is distributed,—that the pressure of the wheels is distributed over a large space. The wheels of the carriage rest on, say, two inches of surface, but that is carried to a large pitching stone below, which rests on the soil, and the weight is distributed over a large surface at the bottom; that is to say, over a surface a foot or nine inches long, and six or eight inches wide; it is lessened very much indeed on the surface that bears on the earth.

You speak of a heavy waggon: is there a distinction between the crushing of the materials and the vibration? -If it is very smooth there is not much crushing. I should perhaps say, where broken granite is placed on the London streets, there is little crushing on the surface, but a good deal below. In some experiments I made some time ago, I found that a great portion of the wear took place near the bottom; the stones there got round after a very short time.