perty and keep pace with the progress of men asked me a question just now which the age. If such were not the case there I did not answer at the time, but I now would be stagnation in the country; the wish to say that the dividends paid last year farmers could make no progress and there in Ontario amounted to $1,786,425.20. would be no prosperity. People who go into the North-West, where profits are greater and returns quicker, can afford to Capital? pay a larger rate of interest on money than the farmers in the older provinces. This HON. MR, SMITH-On how much HON. MR. READ-A capital of $19, gentleman has a hobby in this direction, o00,000 subscribed and paid up, and $30, and has raised a cry about loan com- 944,014.33 borrowed. panies ruining this country by charging enormous rates of interest. Why, hon. HON. MT. SMITH-That is not an gentlemen, there have been millions of answer to the question. I would state as dollars put into this country during the a matter of fact that the institutions of past year at not more than 61⁄2 per cent., this country did not send out as much and on the straight loan plan, too. I ask money, for interest, as they got in. I say will that ruin any man who borrows money, that the country is making a profit on the or any country? Does the hon. gentle- money borrowed from the old country, man want men to borrow money and and different other quarters of the world; then repudiate the interest altogether; is and that profit goes into the hands of our none of this interest to go home to the Canadian people, our farmers being beneolder country from which the money was fitted by that money. I maintain that if borrowed? It would be outrageous to money did not come into this country by think so, and men are in honour bound to means of these institutions our progress pay every dollar which is payable under would be materially affected and delayed. the agreements they may make. I would All the profits arising from the small rate say to every farmer in the country, where of interest paid on moneys coming from he can see his way clear before him, to the old country, belong to Canada, and are borrow £100 for five years at 61⁄2 per spread amongst our own people, fowardcent., and improve his property; by such ing their interests and building up this a course he is doing good to his family, to Dominion. the country, and to those who will come after him. HON. MR. ALEXANDER-As a shareholder of many of the loan societies of the HON. MR. SKEAD-And draining his Province of Ontario, I am bound to say land. that grounds have existed which justify my hon. friend from Belleville in the remarks HON. Mr.SMITH-Yes draining his land which he has made. It is all very well for and so on. The country will progress in my hon. friend on my left (Mr. Smith) to this way, but if the motion of the hon. gen- charge the hon. gentleman from Belleville tleman from Belleville (Mr. Read) is adopt- (Mr. Read) with having made remarks ed farmers must not do a single act on their which are not justified, but I ask this farms until they have the money out of House simply to consider that the House the land. I do think that the sooner my of Commons-with regard to the Bill now hon. friend drops these notions the better, presented by my hon. friend behind me and the sooner the farmers of the (Mr. Gibbs)-has thought it necessary to Dominion are taught that it is not a limit the rate of interest to 8 per cent. I hardship to borrow from these companies ask is that not evidence, which we cannot the better it will be for this country. I ignore, that loan societies have been say these institutions are doing good service charging more than that reasonable rate? and are getting very large amounts of Where could there be evidence more strikmoney out from England at 4, 42 and 5 per cent., which moneys they are lending at a small advance on these rates, and so are greatly benefitting the Dominion. ing with regard to the truth of the position taken by my hon. friend from Belleville (Mr. Read)? Why the very fact that the other Chamber felt it to be their duty to enact this provision is conclusive evidence HON. MR. READ-The hon. gentle-upon the subject; and no member of this 1 House, I am sure, will say that any loan | societies should be restricted, but here is company should demand from the indus- a company with a very large amount of trious people of this country more than money at its disposal, which desires to go eight per cent. for money loaned. I quite to the North-West and carry on its operaagree with the views of my hon. friend tions there upon exactly the same basis from Toronto (Mr. Smith), that the loan as that upon which other comsocieties have rendered great service to panies stand-which is surely a very the country; I believe that the Trust and proper claim. It (the Trust and Loan Company, the Canada Landed Loan Company) was the first comCredit Company, and many other Company in Canada which obtained the right panies, have aided this country greatly and to loan money at eight per cent., upon have acted very fairly by the farmers, and real estate; and if I am not mistaken the borrowers generally, throughout the Dom- Premier of the Dominion has been soliinion. On the other hand, however, I citor for it since it was established. It believe that other companies have exceed- was he who got the first bill, affecting this ed reasonable rates. I think my hon. Company, through the old Parliament of friend from Belleville (Mr. Read) is justi Canada, and obtained for it the privilege fied in what he has said, and I feel that of loaning money at eight per cent. ; and the people of this country owe him thanks I say if any company has ever used its for his action on the present occasion. powers well and treated its customers leniently I believe it is the Trust and Loan Company-and I believe the same applies with respect to the Landed Credit Company. I felt I was in duty bound to defend these two Companies for whom I have asked the second reading of the Bills to which allusion has been made by my hon. friend so indiscriminately. He has not answered a very important question put to him to-day, when he says that the Companies have been paying from six to twelve per cent. If I understand him correctly he said it was $1,400,000, which is only an average of about seven per cent., and in fact the whole of his arguments can be disposed of from his own statements. HON. MR. GIBBS-I simply rise to say that, as the hon. gentleman from Belleville (Mr. Read) has mentioned no names in speaking of the hardships which certain companies impose on business, it might be inferred that the two companies whose Bills are before us to-day are amenable to the charge which he has so generally made. Now I maintain that if there are any companies in this country which are not open to any such charges they are the two companies which are asking for amendments to their charters for which I ask the second reading. My hon. friend from Woodstock has anticipated me in what I was going to say upon that point and I need not repeat it; I feel bound however to rise in defence of HON. MR. READ-I think it is only these two companies, lest it might be right to make an explanation. I quite inferred that they are properly open to agree with the hon. gentleman from Oshawa the charge made indiscriminately against (Mr. Gibbs), who speaks in the highest loan companies, by my hon. friend from terms of the Trust and Loan Company Belleville (Mr. Read). I quite agree and I have reason to know-having been in concur in all that has been said by the timately acquainted with this company for hon. gentleman from Woodstock (Mr. about thirty years-that its transactions Alexander) with reference to the Trust have always been fair and honorable, and and Loan Company, especially, of whose in every way what could be desired. They operations I know more than of the others. have not been exacting; of course they It may be said of this and kindred always have obtained eight per cent., and societies that they have never made any have paid more than eight per cent. for but what are called straight loans, and the last thirty years to their stockholders. therefore the charge which has been That can easily be seen, and a very excelbrought against some companies-the lent investment it has been for those men truth of which I quite acknowledge as who first embarked in it. As for the other applied to them-cannot be applied in company, I know nothing of it. With these particular instances. I am free to regard to the Trust and Loan Company, confess that the powers of some loan however the experience of thirty years has proved that it has paid to its stock- These are facts within my own knowledge, HON. MR. READ-I think the hon. gentleman himself has been up twice, if I mistake not; we are often out of order. HON. MR. FLINT-I am well acquainted with the Trust and Loan Company and must say that a more honorable corporation could not be found anywhere and I speak this to their praise. It certainly has astonished me that they should ask extra power, to charge interest over eight per cent. and I cannot understand it. They have been doing business for many years and have kept straight to the mark; and, further, in connection with their loans they have never, so far as my knowledge extends, pressed anyone who made any attempt or tried to pay them. I know more than all that, that within the last year, or a little more than a year, where a person paid his interest punctually to the day; they have been taking off one per cent., thus making the interest virtually seven per cent. There fore I was astonished that they should ask for greater powers, enabling them to increase the rate of interest. Now, with regard to my hon. friend from Toronto ; he says that six and a half to seven per cent. interest on the straight loan plan is all they are getting; but we know, and it cannot be denied, that heretofore certain companies got certain powers that they might take any amouut of interest they chose. The consequence was that they have locked up a great many farms, which they have at their disposal now, and they will never see the money they have advanced on them. The very fact that this is so proves how impossible it was for any man who got into debt on his farm, paying so high a rate, ever to discharge it. money. I know that any man in business, who pays more than eight per cent. will find that his bills will never be paid. HON. MR. FLINT-I do not know how they can do it; they could not do so on a farm, nor in many other kinds of business. I have had a great deal of trouble and I have had to pay more than eight per cent., but I know it dragged me down. I understand all about the matter, and it has done me a vast amount of injury. I do not complain of my own losses; I could not help myself, and borrowed money at that rate to see if better times would not come. I think, however, my hon. friend the mover of these Bills should be quite satisfied to take the Bills as they are, and should not undertake to get more than eight per cent. for either of these companies. HON. SIR ALEX. CAMPBELL -He does not want more. HON. MR. FLINT-He speaks as if this Bill should be placed upon the same footing as the others; but I think if we have gone in the wrong direction, we should now set ourselves right, and I trust that no Bill will ever pass which allows a rate higher than eight per cent. HON. MR. READ-I will now give the hon. gentleman from Toronto (Mr. Smith) an answer to his question. I have made it up and find that the companies pay an average of nine per cent., lacking a fraction or two. The amount of capital is $19,861,722, and they have paid $1,736,425, for the year ending 1st January, 1880, being about nine per cent. Then there must be added to this the expenses of management, $523,640, being about two and three-quarters per cent. on the paid-up capital, besides charges paid by the borrowers. The motion was agreed to and the was read the second time. Bill that this is quixotic or visionary, but I confess when I look back for the last sixty years and see the gigantic strides which sience has made in works of this kind I do not venture to limit what the intellect of man will accomplish. I can recollect when the mail was conveyed on horseback in saddlebags from my home to the cities of St. John and Fredericton once a month, and I have a vivid recollection of the mail carrier riding into the village and bringing information which was a month old. The hon. member from Amherst (Mr. Dickey) has made the complaint-I think justly-that he does not CHIGNECTO MARINE RAILWAY receive his English letters until six hours BILL. SECOND READING. HON. MR. BOTSFORD moved the second reading of Bill (57) "An Act to incorporate the Chignecto Marine Transport Railway Company Limited." when we were actually without information from England, or the mails did not arrive, for three months at a time. When we compare that with steamers crossing later than they should be here. In the days to which I have referred it would take nearly a week to get from the eastern part of New Brunswick to St. John. I am old enough to recollect that we, in our legislative capacities in Fredericton, did not receive English news in the He said This Bill deals with a subject winter season, sometimes, for three which has been of very great interest for months. I recollect several instances the last three-quarters of a century. I can still recollect when some prominent merchants in Boston and Salem took a great interest in having ship navigation across this Isthmus in order to carry on the Atlantic as they do trade, I persume, principal with the fish- now in one week, hon. gentlemen will eries in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The see what wonderful improvement has been Legislature of New Brunswick took a deep made in this respect. When I was a younger interest in this question. It had made man it used to take me sometimes a week several separate surveys. I think one of to reach Fredericton; it is now accomthese surveys was in connection with plished in five or six hours. What would the Province of Nova Scotia and have been considered if it had been the Province of Prince Edward Island; predicted at the period to which I refer, but notwithstanding a mass of favorable that a man would be borne over the surreports from the engineers who made face of the earth at the rate of fifty miles these surveys, still there were difficulties an hour; that he would drive through in the way and the object was not accom- mountains by means of tunnels; that alplished. The Dominion Government also most in a second of time he would get a made a most expensive and exhaustive communication from Europe to America; survey of this route with the object, I sin- and that he could converse with a friend cerely believe, of having a navigable chan- a hundred miles away, through the aid of nel cut through this Isthmus in order to the telephone? When hon. members facilitate trade between the Gulf and River bear these facts in mind they will hesitate St Lawrence and the American sea-board; before they pronounce a scheme, such as but from unavoidable circumstances, which this Bill contemplates, as visionary. For perhaps it is unnecessary to explain, that my part, although I must confess that it also failed, and it has now come to be is somewhat of an experiment, when I considered that a marine railway should see the great progress which has been be constructed there which would se- made in science and art, I do not cure all the advantages contemplated by myself doubt that this experiment will be the construction of a canal. I have no a success. I think the promoters of this doubt that a good many persons--perhaps Bill will not be treated with ridicule as some hon. members of the Senate-think attempting to foist upon the Dominion a scheme which in the opinion of some, per- with certain terms, and if the Government haps, may be visionary. Hon. gentlemen and the Company cannot agree a board of will observe that this experiment, if it be arbitration shall be appointed. Clause attempted, will be made at the risk of seventeen provides that the tolls shall be private individuals. The Dominion Gov- fixed, in the first instance by the Comernment do not take upon themselves the pany, but subject to approval by the responsibility of its success. If the work Government. These are the principal be completed, it will be at the risk and features of the Bill of which I now move expense of the gentlemen who voluntarily the second reading. advance their money for its construction; but it will be generally admitted, that if the scheme should prove successful, it will be a great credit to the Dominion as establishing for the first time the usefulness of a work of this kind. Therefore, I trust, that there will not be any opposition to this scheme, although it may, in the ideas of some persons who have not given it serious consideration, be regarded as one of a visionary character. HON. MR. ALMON-Who pays for the land that is taken for the railway? HON. MR. BOTSFORD-The Company as a matter of course: that is provided for in the Consolidated Railway Act. HON. MR. POWER---I don't propose to offer any opposition to the second reading, because it purports to be a private This Bill is to incorporate some private bill. At the same time I do not think it individuals, and to given them the usual is a measure which should be allowed to corporate powers for the construction of a pass without some remark, because we marine railway from the Bay of Fundy to have to become cognisant of what has the waters of Baie Verte. Power is taken, been done at the other end of the building. of course, to expropriate land necessary It would appear that the Government for carrying on the work, but the provisions propose to give a subsidy of $150,000 a of the Consolidated Railway Act of 1879 year to this Company, and further to give protect those who own this private proper- a sum of $350,000 to aid in the constructy. The Bill also gives power, which is tion of an ordinary railroad alongside this absolutely necessary for the accomplish-track-a road to Cape Tormentine: so it ment of this work, to take possession of will be seen that this innocent looking bill such necessary parts of the beach, or lands which has just been described by my covered with water, of the Chignecto hon. friend may be something much more Basin, and also of Baie Verte, as may be serious and mischievous than we take required for the construction of the work, it to be. The grant is subject to the and for prosecuting the undertaking. The condition that the road is first to be eighth clause provides that the capital built by the Company, but there is another shall consist of $1,000,000, with power to provision that the Government may take increase the same when necessary, and by over the work from this Company, and the ninth section the Company are em I only trust that the country shall not powered to issue preference stock to the be called upon to assume this work within extent of a million and a half the next year or two in an unfinished condollars. Section thirteen authorizes dition and requiring the expenditure of a the Company to issue promissory large sum to complete it. HON. MR. BOTSFORD-It is not to be taken over until actually finished and in good working order. notes and bills of exchange, but with the usual proviso with respect to their not becoming negotiable: they cannot be made payable to bearer, nor can they be circulated as money, or bank-notes. Section fifteen gives authority to the Dominion HON. MR. POWER-There is nothing Government to assume possession of the to prevent the Government taking it over property on certain conditions-if after before it is finished. this work is completed and in successful operation it be found desirable by the Government to make it a public work, as it is one of great public interest, they may assume control over it upon complying HON. MR. HAYTHORNE-It must be done by authority of Parliament. HON. MR. POWER-There is just one |