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SENATE.]

Cumberland Road.-Printing for Congress.-Judiciary System, &c.

he might say two millions of dollars upon this road, and then to leave it in its present condition.

While he was up, he would take the liberty to inquire into a new order of the Senate. It had been the practice, for many years, for members of the Senate to introduce their friends upon the floor of the Senate chamber. He had been called out this morning to see a gentleman from his own State, and when about to lead him into the chamber, he had been stopped by the officer, who said he had the President's written order to admit no person but the members. He did not dispute the authority of the President, but as he had been deeply mortified, he thought it proper to ask for an explanation.

The President (Mr. SMITH of Maryland) called for the reading of the 47th rule of the Senate, which gives certain powers, in relation to the admission of persons into the chamber, to the President of the Senate.

Mr. SMITH said, that he had been requested, by several of the members, to issue the order in question; that he had doubted the right, but, although being satisfied in that respect, he had still declined interfering, preferring that it should be postponed until the arrival of the Vice-President (Mr. CALHOUN). The members replied to this objection, that it was a necessary order; and that the sooner it was made the better; that the new gallery had been constructed for the use of members, and to that place they could take their friends, instead, as formerly, of introducing them upon the floor. He had therefore given the order; but he was perfectly willing, if it was agreeable to the Se

nate, to countermand it.

[DEC 4 to 16, 1828.

WEDNESDAY, DEC. 10, 1828.

No business of importance was transacted this day.

THURSDAY, Dɛc, 11, 1828.

The Senate was chiefly occupied in business of a preliminary nature. Adjourned to Monday.

MONDAY, DEC. 15, 1828.

PRINTING FOR CONGRESS.

Mr. EATON asked and obtained leave to introduce the tion of 3d of March, 1819; which was read the first time, following joint resolution, amendatory of the joint resoluand ordered to a second reading:

Resolved, &c. That, within days before the adjournment of every Congress, each House shall proceed succeeding Congress; and the person having a majority of to vote for a printer to execute its work for and during the all the votes given, shall be considered duly elected and that so much of the resolution, approved the 3d of March, 1819, entitled A resolution directing the manner in which the printing of Congress shall be executed, fixing the prices thereof, and providing for the appointment of and the same is hereby, rescinded." a printer or printers," as is altered by this resolution, be,

In offering this resolution, Mr. E. said that he might as well declare his object in doing so at this time as at any other. It would be recollected that, at the last Congress, a gentleman from Delaware (Mr. CLAYTON) had submitted Mr. JOHNSON replied that he wished to give no troua resolution to change the mode of electing a public ble to the Senate. He had been greatly mortified at the printer, by requiring a majority of votes to elect, instead of refusal to admit his friend, or rather his friend's friend, a a plurality, as prescribed in the joint resolution of 1819. gentleman from his own State. He might be wrong, but It was at that time maintained, that, as it was a joint resohe differed in opinion with the members who had request-lution of the two Houses which prescribed that a plurality ed the order. He had derived great advantages from having his friends upon the floor, where he could converse with them without leaving the chamber; the chamber had been frequently crowded to hear the eloquent gentlemen around him upon great and important questions. It gave solemnity to the body to have them so surrounded. There had never been any complaint about the conversation in the room. If it was put to him to say, he should vote against the change; but, as it was, he should say no more about it.

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 4, 1828.

This day's sitting was principally taken up in debating whether the Standing Committees should be appointed this day or on Monday next. A resolution for appointing them on Monday finally prevailed.

FRIDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1828.
CUMBERLAND ROAD.

Agreeably to notice given on Wednesday, Mr. JOHNSON, of Kentucky, asked and obtained leave to bring in a bill for the preservation and repair of the Cumberland road; which was read a first time. Adjourned to Monday.

MONDAY, DEC. 8, 1828.

The Senate, agreeably to the orders of the day, proceeded to the election of their Standing Committees, and succeeded in electing five of them.

TUESDAY, DEC. 9, 1828.

The Senate concluded the balloting for the remainder of their Standing Committees.

The President communicated the annual Report of the Secretary of the Treasury on the state of the Finances; which was read, and 1500 extra copies ordered to be printed for the use of the Senate. [See Appendix.]

of votes, should elect, the Senate was incompetent, of itself, to change the mode. The amendment now submitted by him, Mr. E. observed, was intended to do that directly, and by law, which had been attempted to be done by the vote of one House of Congress only.

TUESDAY, DEC. 16, 1828.

THE JUDICIARY SYSTEM, &c.
The following resolution, yesterday submitted by Mr.
WHITE, was taken up for consideration:

Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary be instructed to inquire into the propriety and necessity of so amending the Judicial System of the United States as to place all the States in a similar situation; and furnish to the citizens of each an equal opportunity of having a due administration of justice.

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Mr. WHITE observed, that, in submitting this resolution for the consideration of the Senate, he had merely performed a duty imposed upon him by the Legislature of his own State. They had instructed him to keep the attention of Congress directed to the subject, until not only footing. In his State there were two classes of United Tennessee, but all the States, were placed upon the same

He

States' Courts-the District and the Circuit Courts.
then went into a statement of the duties of the Courts in
the several States, and said that, in Tennessee, they had
nominally the assistance of the Judge of the Supreme
Court, but so much other business was there to be trans-
acted, that the Associate Judge of the Supreme Court
could but seldom attend, and the assistance was but nomi-
nal; it was not in the power of the Judge to attend to his
other duties, and regularly attend the Courts where he
[Mr. WHITE] lived. The object of this resolution was to
obtain for the subject the attention of the committee, to
the end that they might propose some course by which,
what was considered sufficient and proper for one State,
should be conceded to all the twenty-four States.

Three

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plans had been talked of for the purpose of obviating the difficulties under which some of the States now labored. Some had thought that the best course would be to increase the number of the Judges of the Supreme Court, so that they might be enabled to transact their business here, and have sufficient time to travel upon the Circuit. Others had thought it advisable to have the Circuits without the interference of the Supreme Court Judges, and had therefore proposed to lessen the number of those Judges, to take from them their circuit duties, and let the District Courts discharge all those duties. Others had thought that it would be an improvement to have the Supreme Court located at one place, and if it was unsafe to have District Judges alone, to appoint Circuit Judges for their assistance. His object was to have the subject considered by the intelligent Judiciary Committee; to leave it entirely to them; and for them to propose one of these courses if they believed it to be correct, or, if not, some other.

His impression was, that, if the Circuit duties were taken altogether from the Judges of the Supreme Court, leaving that only an appellate Court, that the present number of Judges was larger than was necessary. There were now seven of them. Since the last session of Congress their number had been decreased by the death of one of the Judges. If the number of Judges was ever to be lessened, it should be done at a time like the present, when there was not only no incumbent, but there had been no nomination made for an appointment to fill the vacancy. No man, therefore, would be unfairly treated by being turned out of his office, and no man's feelings were interested in favor of any applicant.

He hoped the resolution would be adopted, believing the present as favorable a time as could present itself to have a consideration of the whole subject. The committee would have it in their power to recommend any plan they should think proper, either one of those he had mentioned, or any other; and with this short explanation of the objects of the resolution, he left it.

The resolution was then agreed to. Agreeably to notice yesterday given, Mr. NOBLE asked and obtained leave to introduce bills-granting pensions to sundry Revolutionary and other officers and soldiers, and for other purposes; and for the relief of sundry officers, soldiers, and widows; which were read the first time.

Mr. NOBLE, in introducing the first of these bills, made a few remarks to show that no blame was imputable to the Chairman of the committee for their not passing through both Houses at the last session. The bills came to the Senate too late to allow a proper examination of the papers connected with the respective cases; and he would tell the Senate now, that, in case these petitions, memorials, and bills, were not acted upon, he would not be held responsible for the delay. He said so now.

CONGRESS PRINTING.

The joint resolution yesterday introduced by Mr. EATON was taken up, read a second time, and considered. Mr. EATON moved to fill the blank with the word thirty, which was carried.

Mr. KNIGHT then submitted the following as an additional section:

"And it is further resolved, That the Secretary of the Senate and the Clerk of the House of Representatives, at every session of Congress (including the present), when such printers are to be chosen, shall severally give notice, in three of the public papers, printed in the City of Washington, six weeks in succession, for sealed proposals to be made to either of them of the terms for which the public printing will be performed for each House, for the succeeding Congress; and that such proposals shall be and remain unopened, until the last Monday in February following, when those made to the Secretary of the Senate

[SENATE.

shall be opened by the presiding officer, and in the presence of the Senate, and those made to the Clerk of the House shall be opened by the presiding officer, and in the presence of the House; and the election of printers shall be made at such time thereafter as each House may think proper."

Mr KNIGHT said, the only object of this amendment was economy; as it was his impression that much more was paid for the printing than was necessary. They did not, by the adoption of this amendment, bind themselves to elect the person sending in the lowest proposals. He supposed it might be done for a much less sum than it was at present; and when they had before them the several propositions, they could elect whomsoever they pleased. It would also produce competition, the result of which would be a reduction in the prices. He was confident that at least twenty-five per cent. more was paid than it could be done for, and equally well done. The same course, of advertising for the lowest proposals, was pursued by all the Departments, and as he believed that it would save a considerable sum, he hoped the course he proposed would be pursued by Congress.

Mr. EATON hoped that the amendment would not be adopted. When he was first in Congress, the system proposed by the gentleman from Rhode Island was the regular system pursued; but all who remembered the time he spoke of, and remembered the manner in which the work was done at that time, would oppose a return to the system. The work was miserably done, and the Secretary of the Senate was frequently obliged to apply to other than the regular printer to the body, to have the work done in season. The Senate ought not to ask any printer to do their work for less than it was worth. If too much was paid for it, let the sum be reduced; and if too little, let it be increased; but he was opposed to the plan of setting it up to the lowest bidder. He wished to have the journals and documents go down to posterity printed in a proper manner. The Senate, perceiving the difficulties under which they labored, had, a few years since, referred the subject to Mr. Wilson, a member from New Jersey, who had been all his life a printer. He graduated the prices, and they had been the established prices ever since that time. The price of labor had not diminished in the country since that time; the price of paper and materials had not diminished; and he did not know that the work could be afforded any cheaper. Still he had no objection to an investigation of the subject, and to having the price lowered if too much was now paid. Many men would be induced to do it for a very reduced price, and at no profit, for the sake of doing it; but he was in favor of having it done well. His proposition was a very simple one, merely having for its object the change in the mode of electing, so that a majority, instead of a plurality, should be necessary to the choice. This was a common course in elections, and in many States even the members of Congress were elected by majorities. This same proposition had been made two years ago, at which time the Senate were in favor of it. The object of it was, that no person could get the place who was not the choice of the Senate. The result of the amendment would be, that five, six, or a dozen men, would come there with their propositions; the Senate would be bothered with them; it was putting the printing of the Senate up to the lowest bidder, and an individual not the choice of the Senate, had an opportunity of being elected.

Mr. KNIGHT thought the gentleman from Tennessee misconceived the object of his amendment. He only asked for that information which was necessary to aid him in the choice, and which those who had not been in the Senate so long as the gentlemen from Tennessee were in want of. The same course had been adopted in the several Departments. No alteration was made in the original resolution, and it was merely an addition, which did not interfere with it.

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Mr. EATON could see no object in applying to printers for their terms, unless the Senate were to be governed by those terms after they were received. He therefore moved that the whole should be laid upon the table, and the amendment be printed; which motion prevailed.

WEDNESDAY, DEC. 17, 1828.

The Senate, on motion of Mr. EATON, proceeded to the consideration of the joint resolution providing the mode for the election of a public printer; the question being on the amendment offered by Mr. KNIGHT.

Mr. EATON rose and said he had a few remarks to make upon this subject. It was a rule of the Senate that, when a bill or resolution had passed to its second reading, either to consider it in a Committee of the Whole, or refer it to a Committee. In this case he preferred the former course. If it were any thing involving an important principle he should think it proper to have it considered by a Committee; but this was not a case of that sort; it was merely a proposition to amend the joint resolution of the two Houses upon this subject, by changing the mode of election, and making a majority of the whole votes necessary to the election, instead of a plurality-to know whether a majority or a mere plurality should rule there, and govern them in their elections. The resolution of 1819 says, the choice shall be by the highest number of votes given. Now five or six persons might apply for the situation, and by dividing the votes, one might be elected by only thirteen or fourteen votes; and thus a person be foisted upon us who was not of our choice. This mode of advertising for proposals, as proposed by the gentleman from Rhode Island, was putting it up to the lowest bidder; for he could make nothing else of it, although the gentlemen had endeavored to explain a difference. Why should we call upon them if we do not mean to be compromitted in our choice by the proposals sent in? If the gentleman thinks the schedule of prices adopted in 1819 is unfair, and that we are paying too much, let the matter be referred to a Committee, who shall receive proposals, and fix the proper prices; but that the prices were too high, no man there was competent to say he believed that they were not. When he came into the Senate, in the year 1819, a person was printer to that body, who was selected on account of the lowness of his proposals, and it was frequently the case, that the Secretary was ordered to get the printing done by private contracts. He was not prepared to go back to such a state of things. The printing was now done well, and done upon the schedule of prices fixed by a member who was himself a printer; he took that fact as prima facie evidence that they were not paying too much for their printing. It was fixed, for the common documents, at one dollar a page, and at that price the six hundred copies were printed. A close, miserly way of paying for the printing was not the true economy. Pay well for the work-that was economy. Some of the documents, printed upon the old system, at the lowest price, were upon so poor paper that they almost fell to pieces upon being turned over. It was the worst kind of economy, that which was called cheapness. He could not conceive the propriety of changing the present system, or the object to be attained by the addition of the proposed amendment. It was said that it was the plan pursued by the War Department, and the Commissariat Department, both of which advertised for proposals to furnish clothing and other necessaries at the lowest prices. It was proper that they should; an immense saving might be made by it: but the Senate could save nothing by the adoption of a similar course, as they did not know what was a fair price to pay, and might be disappointed in the work. He would ask the gentleman from Rhode Island not to press this amendment to his resolution, when it had no bearing upon the resolution-the object of which was

[DEC. 17, 1828.

to change the mode of election from a plurality to that of a majority.

Mr. KNIGHT said that, when he proposed his amendment to the resolution, the object of it appeared so palpable upon the face of it, that he did not suppose it would meet with any opposition at all. The amendment he proposed was in accordance with the practice of Government for many years. The Departments all did the same thing. The Navy Department always advertised for the lowest proposals to furnish them with provisions; the War Department always advertised in this manner, through the Commissary, for clothing for the army, &c.; the Post Office Department for the lowest proposals to carry the mails; the Treasury Department always advertised for its loans, and other objects applicable to that Department. They do not, however, always give the contract to the lowest bidder. His amendment merely proposed to advertise for the lowest proposals; but would not bind the Senate to select the person who bid the lowest. They could, after receiving the necessary information, take all things into consideration; and, if the lowest was able to carry his contract into execution, it was for the general good that he should be elected. The resolution was more for information, than for the purpose of forming a contract. The information he wanted was, whether they were now paying too much; it was his impression that they were; if his amendment was adopted it would tend to promote competition. It was proper to give the printer a fair compensation for his services; and when the information for which he asked was obtained, they would be able to vote understandingly upon that point. At a former session, the Senate had pursued this course, in directing the War Department to advertise for proposals for furnishing a certain number of copies of the military tactics; the Department did so, proposals were received, the Senate acted upon them, and there was no complaint that the work was not well done. That was the system he now proposed to adopt. If this course was now pursued, a number of proposals probably would be before the Senate, and some judgment could be formed. It was a fact, that every body was acquainted with, that the price of printing was now lower than formerly. Type was made in various parts of the country, paper was cheaper, and steam had been applied to the purpose of printing. Taking all these things into consideration, he had arrived at the conclusion that the Senate was paying too much for its printing. At the last session we had paid $22,000 to our printer. This was a very considerable item in the expenditure; in the House it was more considerable. His opinion was, that the printing might be done, and well done, for a less amount than we now paid. The adoption of the amendment would give them information: they would have all the facts before them, and the Senate could make choice of whomsoever they pleased. He had done no more than his duty in bringing it before the Senate for their consideration. In regard to the manner in which the work had formerly been executed, previous to 1819, and of which the gentleman from Tennessee complained, they had always stipulated for the manner and form in which the work should be done, and it was always in their power to take another, if the printer did not do his work to their satisfaction.

Mr. JOHNSON, of Kentucky, said, it was not his purpose to start objections to the amendment of the gentleman from Rhode Island. The gentleman said it was not his object to bind the Senate to choose the person who should send in the lowest proposals, and yet he made a proposition to that effect, connected with the mode of electing the printer. He wished it had been made an isolated proposition, and submitted for the consideration of a committee, that they might send for persons and papers, and examine the subject, and if too much had been paid, reduce the prices. Such a proposition would have received the

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sanction of every member of the Senate. He wished that it had come before them, not in connexion with any thing else. If you go on the principle of economy in the selection, make that the principle; but if you choose the printer, having high confidence in his integrity and character, then set before him the terms on which you propose to have your work executed. The gentleman said, that he would not bind the Senate to elect the person making the lowest bid. The Departments never deviate from the principle of taking the lowest bid, if the person making that lowest bid is a responsible person, and able to carry his contract into execution. He did not rise so much to oppose the amendment, as to say that, so long as he was a member of the Senate so long as he was in public life-now, and to all time-he would put his veto upon this-he would say, were it not for the respect he bore the gentleman from Rhode Island, and did he not fear that gentleman would attach the remark to the amendment now under consideration, which application he did not intend-he would say, this contemptible and scandalous system of offering the public printing to the man who would make the lowest bid. Men would bid, for the sake of having the work, who could not possibly do the work. If the Postmaster General advertised for proposals for carrying the mail, and if the Commissary General advertised for proposals to furnish beef, it was because they did not, and could not, know the fair price of those articles. But the Senate could know, and did know; the prices were fixed; they could elect their printer to do the work at those prices, and were in want of no contract. There ought to be no contracts made in the country, for doing the public business; it had introduced more fraud and low cunning than any thing else in the world. The printing had been fixed at a fair price, and he would not introduce the principle that the lowest bidder should be entitled to the place. He would not introduce the principle that the lowest bidder should be made a member of Congress; that the lowest bid should elect the Secretary, Doorkeeper, &c., &c. These things were not exactly so, but it was the same principle; and he would not establish the principle that Judges of the Supreme Court and members of the House of Representatives should take their places because they were willing to work cheaper than any body else. Tell me the difference in principle-Where is the difference between electing a member of Congress, and electing a printer to Congress? If you give too much for the printing, and if you give your public officers too much for their services, curtail the one, and lessen the salary of the other, but do not establish this contemptible principle of doing every thing by contract, and with the lowest bidder. The Senate could fix the salaries for their officers; they could fix the price for their printing; there was no necessity for a contract; and he would say, that he felt an instinctive abhorrence at doing every thing by contract. He should vote against any proposition of the kind, at any time, and he was sorry that this was introduced to clog and embarrass the passage of a simple proposition to amend the rule, in a point which he considered important.

Mr. CHANDLER thought it proper, if they were paying any men too high for their services, to curtail the expenses; but what had that to do with this subject? He did not say they were not paying too much. If the gentleman from Rhode Island had offered a resolution to raise a Committee to inquire into the subject, he should have voted for its passage. If he would do it now, he [Mr. C.] would vote for it. But this was merely relating to another subject, a transaction by itself, and they would act upon it by itself. If the amendment was adopted, they could not act upon the whole together, but would be obliged to divide the question.

Mr. KANE said he should trouble the Senate with but a few words upon the subject. If the gentleman from

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[SENATE.

Rhode Island had made a proposition simply to ascertain whether too much was paid for the printing, he should have voted for it: for he agreed with the gentleman that the printing had heretofore cost too much; but that it cost too much now, he was not prepared to say. When he said that the printing heretofore cost too much, he did it from the knowledge that it was as well done now for a less price, than was formerly paid. It seemed to him that the information the gentleman asked for would be given to the Senate just at the moment when they were called upon to act upon the subject, and would have an undue influence upon the minds of the Senators in the choice. The gentleman from Rhode Island proposed for bids, after the manner of the Departments. The reason they advertise for proposals is, because it is not in their power to know what are fair prices for the articles they wish to obtain. The Senate, on the contrary, could ascertain the prices at which the printing should be done. He should be unwilling to trust the printing to any person who would do it for less than he could afford to do it for; the printer must be able to do the work in the manner and form required.

He would state a case, which proved that the printing was now done cheaper than formerly. "Tother morning, in a committee room, he had occasion to examine two documents, in which were several pages of rule work; he found that they were done upon a new plan, in which as much was contained upon a single page, for which they paid three dollars and fifty cents, as formerly cost them seventeen dollars. In the documents accompanying the President's message, there was as much on a page for which they paid four or four and a half dollars, as they had been in the habit of paying eleven dollars for; so that he concurred with the gentleman from Rhode Island, that they had heretofore paid too much. Whether they did now or not, he could not say; but in his judgment, it was as cheap as it could be done by contract. In providing a printer, they should never choose a person who would do it for less than he could afford to do it for.

Mr. KNIGHT observed that he should not have said another word on the subject, had it not been for the term 'contemptible," applied to his amendment by the Senator from Kentucky [Mr. JOHNSON.]

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The CHAIR said he had not understood the gentleman from Kentucky as applying his remark to the amendment of the Senator from Rhode Island.

Mr. KNIGHT said he had certainly so understood the gentleman, but was happy to learn that he had misunderstood him.

Mr. JOHNSON, of Kentucky, considered it due to himself to say, that his former expression was, that "but for the respect he bore for the gentleman from Rhode Island, and fearing that he would apply the remark to the present proposition, he should have said the system of advertising for a bidder was contemptible." He had used the same remark again, as applied to the system out of the House. If he could have so little respect for the Senate, whatever he might think, he could not have so little respect for others, and had too much respect for himself, to make use of such expressions.

The CHAIR again said, that, had he understood the gentleman from Kentucky as applying his remarks to the amendment of the Senator from Rhode Island, he should certainly have called him to order.

Mr. JOHNSTON, of Louisiana, said, that he went upon the principle that a majority of votes should always govern in cases of election. He was of opinion that all such appointments as the one which was now the subject of discussion should be made by a majority. He was opposed to the amendment, because he conceived that the mode proposed was the very worst mode that could be adopted. Previous to 1819 the practice had been to put out the printing to the lowest bidder, as is contemplated

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by the amendment of the gentleman from Rhode Island, and the effect of it was to have the printing done with the poorest materials, and on the worst possible plan. Indeed, he had been informed that a bill of a highly important nature had been put off for a whole year, in consequence of the neglect of a printer who performed the work under a contract. The minority would not act without further information, and the majority were afraid to act without the requisite information. The effect of competition was to attract here a number of persons, all anxious to get hold of the public money, who, ignorant of calculations, and not aware of the expenses to be encountered, were willing to take the work at prices ruinous to themselves, and disadvantageous to the Government. The expenses of the Congressional printer are necessarily very great; a large amount of capital is expended by him for materials and machinery; and the vast number of persons employed by him subjects him to heavy and continued expenses. How, then, was it to be expected that a person could be prepared, immediately on the acceptance of his bid, with the materials and competent workmen, to execute the printing in a proper manner, with the reduced prices which competition would exact? He well recollected that, under the contract system, the printing was executed in the most slovenly manner, and that the difficulties experienced by it forced an investigation of the subject. Three modes of obviating those difficulties were proposed to continue the contract system with some modification; for each House to execute its own printing, by the establishment of an office entirely under the control of the Government; and lastly, by electing a printer and fixing the prices of the work. The first having been found so objectionable, was abandoned; the second, Congress was not disposed to adopt, because it was deemed but an experiment, the effects of which would be extremely doubtful; the third proposition of electing a printer, and fixing the prices, was determined on by the resolution of 1819, and experience had fully demonstrated, that that was the most preferable method of executing the printing of Congress. He was not prepared to say whether the prices were too high or too low. He was perfectly willing to refer that subject to a Committee, to inquire and report upon; and, indeed, the suggestion of the gentleman from Illinois had satisfied him that an inquiry was necessary. If, said he, the language of the resolution was so vague as to enable one printer to put a construction upon it by which seventeen dollars was charged for a piece of work which another charges but three dollars for, it is time that it should be amended. The subject had been before the Retrenchment Committee of the other House, at the last session, and it was found by them, that by a construction put upon the language of the resolution, more had been charged for some of the work than was necessary. The difficulty, however, with him, [Mr. J said,] was not as to the prices given; but the great evil consisted in the vast number of useless documents which were annually printed We are inundated with useless documents; the volumes were swelled to an exorbitant extent, and seventeen or eighteen volumes were annually bound. How many of these were actually necessary, he left it for the Senate to decide; most of them were certainly entirely unnecessary. The Retrenchment Committee had recommended that a Standing Committee should be constituted by each House, who should decide on the quantity of printing necessary to be done. This, [said Mr. J.] will be the true economy. Mr. J. did not see the utility of the last part of the resolution, which went to repeal part of the resolution of 1819, but he entirely concurred with the gentleman from Tennessee, that a najority of votes should determine the choice of a printer. As to the contract system, it might do for the several Departments, but it was neither proper nor expedient here.

[DEC. 17, 1828.

Mr. BENTON said there was such a thing as too much legislation. It was idle for the farmer to plant and replant, without giving time for a crop. But fifteen or sixteen days of the session had transpired, and they were seriously at work on this subject of printing. Last springno, (said Mr. B.) last summer-we had adopted a very salutary regulation, by joint resolution, and, without waiting for the effect of that resolution, we were at work on the matter again. He would call the attention of the Senate to the resolution of the 24th May last, and which would be found at page 153 of the Laws. Those who have been any time in Congress will perceive that the resolution to which he had referred, will cause a reduction in the price of printing, of one-half, and in some instances three-fourths. The ordinary method of printing had been, frequently, to make four pages where only one was found to be necessary. Here was a saving of three-fourths of the expensethis the effect of dispensing with title-pages. In most cases it would be found that one-half the expense would be saved. This was a great deduction from the profits of the printer. Again, the resolution provided that the yeas and nays should be printed as ordinary matter, and not be set in columns, as had heretofore been done. Here was another saving, but not so great. The resolution also provided that Executive documents, reports, &c., should be bound together-here was an improvement, but no saving. Mr. B. then referred to the statement which had been made by Mr. KANE, of the great economy of printing, at the present session. This fact, he said, was not confined to the single act of printing, but affected the binding also. Where there was tabular work, exceeding the size of a page, it necessarily had to be folded, and greatly swelled the size of the volume; and, when much used, it looked like a rolled heap of straw. He did not know whether the prices at present allowed were too high or too low, but he knew that the resolution to which he referred had the effect of lessening the cost of the printing, and, consequently, the profits of the printer.

Let us wait a little longer, (said Mr. B.,) and ascertain the practical effect of the resolution. The Secretary and Clerk had wisely discharged their duties as prescribed by it, and the whole matter was under their control now. There was no necessity for the interference of the Senate,

As to the amendment of the Senator from Rhode Island, it provides that the proposals shall not be opened until the Senate were to act upon them. What would be the effect of this? Why, to swell the profits of the printer: for when carried into effect, it would be found that the work had been done in a manner different from what the proposals specified. The paper would be of an inferior quality, and the work done with the sole view to profit. How different was the case where Congress itself determined the prices, and the printer went to work with a proper understanding of the matter. The gentleman from Rhode Island had spoken of the amount paid for printing at the last session of Congress. But the amount named by him did not form a part of the current expenses of the session. The Executive Journal, Jefferson's Manual, the Treasury Reports, &c, had been ordered to be printed, and it was not right to throw out the idea to the public that the Senate had been more extravagant in their expenses at the last session than formerly. With regard to this plan of putting out the printing to the lowest bidder, he had another remark to make. The printing of Congress was frequently of a confidential nature. We are obliged to intrust our printer with many matters requiring secrecy, and he his journeymen. It was necessary, then, that we should elect a man of character, on whom we can rely for the discreet performance of his duties. Many of these confidential matters related to foreign nations, and the agents of foreign Governments would freely give, in many cases, more than the whole amount paid for the public printing, to be put in possession of these matters. The ob

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