Jected them and carried them forward, he establish that any one of them is not true. T las advanced but a little, he has ad object of this section was simply to render inte vanced but a trifle, toward establishing in this ligible to the great mass of the people what the Convention the wisdom aud propriety of the prop- have heretofore misunderstood. The mou at osition that we should at this time disregard the the liabilities of the State have not been know plighted faith and honor of the people of this nor understood by the people, and the Committe State, disregard the obligatious which we have on Finance thought it was no more than righ solemnly made, and enter upon a new experiment and fair and honest to tell the people, and of enlarging these canals. Sir. it is poor logic, to to state precisely how much the debt of the Stat my mind, to say that in the early days of these was, and what it was for. The first section speci public works there were "croakers" who doubted fies the outstanding debts of the State an their success, and therefore to infer that other liabilities, for the payment of which the those who oppose this wild scheme which is now canal revenues are pledged by the terms of the reported by the Canal Committee are to be re- Constitution of 1846 and the amendment of 1954 garded as opponents of the public works-as en- as follows: The old canal debt of 1846, $3,258, emies of the canals. It is not only unfair, but it 060; the general fund debt, $5,642,622.22; and is exceedingly unjust to endeavor to make that ap- the debt under the amendment of 1854, $10,807, plication. Sir, I assert, in general terms, that for 000; the floating canal debt, $1,700,000; adthe last twenty five years, in my humble judg-vances for the canals by taxation with interest ment, the men who have claimed to be the ex- $18,007,289.68. If any gentleman will look at clusive friends of the canals have been their the Constitution of 1846, he will find every one of worst enemies. They have piled debt upon debt these debts provided for and the revenues of the upou these canals, they have increased the tolls canals pledged for their payment. I say it is and taxes upon the commerce that has passed proper and right and just that the people of over them, and thus have prevented that free and the State should understand that fact. open navigation which we ought long ago to have secured. My friend said something in relation to the first section, which he moves to strike out, in the report of the Committee on Finances. I did not distinctly understand what he said, but, so far as I did understand him, he said that it was false and deceptive, and calculated to deceive. And, sir, I listened to have the gentleman tell this Convention in what respect it was false. It is easy to use these epithets in relation to this section, but it was the duty of the gentleman, in justice to himself, in justice to the Finance Committee who reported the section, in justice to this Convention, every member of which, I have no doubt, desire to decide fairly, to have shown this Convention wherein this article is calculated to deceive. It is not so; and I challenge the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Lapham], and I chal lenge the Canal Committee, or any gentleman of this Convention to point to a single fact stated in that section which is not true.

Mr. LAPHAM-The gentleman from Orleans [Mr. Church] misunderstood me if he supposes I asserted that anything contained in the section was untrue, or false, in fact. I said no such thing. I said it was a combination of the liabilities of the State to its creditors and of the liabilities of canals to the State, which was calculated to deceive the casual reader as constituting really the whole indebtedness of the State.

Mr. LAPHAM-Is the eighteen millions contained in that statement either a debt or a lia bility of the State?

Mr. CHURCH-It is a liability for which the canal revenues are pledged.

Mr. LAPHAM-Yes; but is it a liability or debt of the State?

Mr. CHURCH-It is a liability.

Mr. LAPHAM-Of the State?

Mr. CHURCH-"The debts of the State or other liabilities," for the payment of which the canal revenues are pledged. I submit to any gen tleman of this committee whether it is not strictly true

Mr. LAPHAM-Is it a liability of the State?
I wish the gentleman would answer.
Mr. CHURCH-It is a liability for which the
canal revenues are pledged.

Mr. LAPHAM-A liability to whom? Mr. CHURCH-It is a liability to return to the treasury of the State moneys which the people have paid out of that treasury by tax. It is precisely such a liability of the State as is specified in the section. It is a liability of the canal reve nues to the other revenues of the State. From the earliest period of the history of the State it has been the policy of the State to keep the revenues of the canals separate from the other reve nues. It has been the policy not to make profits out of the canals. I hold, myself, that the State Mr. CHURCH-I am willing to accept the dis-ought not to make profits from the revenues of claimer. I did not distinctly understand the gen- the canals. I should be opposed to carrying on tleman, but as I understood him, I repeated what our works of internal improvement for the mere he said. But he now says it is "calculated to purpose of profit. I should be opposed to taxing deceive the casual reader." We are in a Conven- the commerce that passes over the canal for the tion composed of intelligent and able men, capable purpose of putting it into the treasury of the of comprehending and understanding the English State. It is for this reason, and on account of language. Aud here, sir, in the most simple this policy, that the revenues have been kept form, in the first section of the article of the re- separate from the other revenues of the State; port of the Finance Committee, they have set and therefore it has been the practice of the forth the debts and liabilities of the State, and State from the earliest period, when the people they have set forth those debts and liabilities pay taxes for the canals, when they have ad truly in every possible respect; and I challenge vanced moneys for the canals and from other the gentleman, as I said before, to deny it, or to sources than their direct revenues, that those

tres, and those moneys thus furnished should be | Committee, in its financial arrangement and in its returned and reimbursed from the revenues of the proposed work on the canal, would be a disgrace canals. The Constitution of 1846 declares in to this Convention and a disgrace to the people express terms that every dollar thus advanced of this State. Sir, I believe I know what I am shall be returned with interest at current rates as saying, and I ask only that the members of this soon as it can be done consistently with the rights Convention will examine this subject for themof creditors. The report of the Finauce Com-selves, and, standing here to represent the sovemittee provides that the outstanding creditors reignty of the people of the State, say whether shall be first paid from the revenues, and then, they will repudiate all its pledges, all the pledges in compliance with the Constitution of 1846, it of the people, and violate its agreement and disprovides that the revenues of the canals shall grace the State by taking moneys pledged to a return to the treasury those moneys which the particular purpose, and use them for other objects. people have advanced by taxation. The Canal In the first place, let us look and see what it is Committee state in their report, and it has been that the Canal Committee propose to do with the talked about in this Convention, and outside of canal-and it requires some little practical skill this Convention, that the Finance Committee have and some little ingenuity to understaud what 1 uposed the payment of the bounty debt upon the these gentlemen by these provisions actually canal revenues... Sir, in no proper and just sense mean. Sir, the Convention will bear in mind that can that be said. It is not true in the sense in this is not a project for completing the canals, it which it is used. What we did provide for was is not a project for completing a work already that the canal revenues shall, in accordance with commenced according to a fixed and definite plan, the Constitution of the State, return to the treas- but it is a project for commencing a new scheme ury the moneys which have been paid out of the of enlarging the canals. Now is the time when treasury for the purpose of canals. Now, when the Convention should carefully look at it to see we get these moneys into the treasury of the whether, looking to the end of the scheme, they State, the question is, what shall we do with will commence it; because we all know when you them? Shall we leave them to the tender mer-commence the work, when you begin a project, cies of the Legislature, to do as they please with tem? The Finance Committee thought it would not be wise, and so we provided that when these moneys were returned to the treasury of the State, they should be applied to the outstanding debts of the State; and the ouly debt is the bounty debt.

Mr. VERPLANCK-I would like to ask the gentleman whether he does not propose to pay the entire bounty debt before giving to the canals any portion of the revenues that accrue; whether that is not the direct object of sectious 5 and 6 of the Finance Committee's report?

there is no stopping place until its final consummation. Now is the time to determine, not whether we will complete a work already commenced, but whether we will commence a new work with the full knowledge that if we do commence it we must go through with it, whatever it may cost or whatever its consequences may be. Now, let us see what it is they propose to do. They propose to remove the wall-benches and furnish the necessary supplies of water upon the Erie canal, and to enlarge the bridges and aqueducts and approaches leading thereto. Let us stop here for one single moment. The aqueducts upon Mr. CHURCH-The Finance Committee, in the Erie canal, and upon all the canals of this State, presenting their report, have complied with the are the most expensive structures to be found pledges of the present Constitution in every re- upon the public works. They propose to enlarge spect. They have provided, first, for paying the these structures not only, but the approaches leadOutstanding debts of the State; second, they have ing thereto. Pray tell me what is an approach to provided for a return to the treasury of moneys an aqueduct? I do not remember how many aquewhich the people have advanced by taxation; ducts there are upon the Erie canal, but I supand, third, they leave the revenues unincumbered, pose the approaches to the aqueducts of the Erie to be disposed of as the Legislature may direct canal would include the whole water-way beNow, Mr. Chairman, I invoke the attention of del-tween the aqueducts. But that is not all. They proegates to this Convention a few moments while I pose to enlarge the aqueducts and the approaches examine the report of the Committee on Canals, thereto, so far as may be necessary, upon the Erie, which they propose to substitute for the report Oswego, and Cayuga and Seneca canals, and also of the Committee on Finances. I have the high-construct one tier of large locks upon such canals, est respect for every member of the Committee so that a boat 23 feet wide aud 200 feet long can on Canals. I have no doubt that they presented conveniently navigate the canal its entire length. this project in entire good faith. I have no doubt May it not be claimed-and that is sufficient for but what they believe that it is for the interests my argument-may it not be claimed that under of the State, if not for its honor, to have the pro- that authority you may enlarge your aqueducts visions of their article incorporated into the Con- and your locks and the entire water-way? If it stitution, instead of the provisions of the report should be found or claimed hereafter that you of the Committee on Finances. But I desire to could not conveniently navigate a boat 23 feet have every member of this Convention examine wide and 200 feet long without having your this report and decide for himself. I desire water-way ten, twenty or thirty feet wider than to call the attention of the committee it is now, would it not be claimed, and would it to those epithets which the gentleman from not be a claim well founded, that you had a right Ontario has used, and determine to which re- to enlarge the water-way to make it convenient port they ought to be applied. I undertake to for the passage of boats of the proposed size? It Say that the adoption of the report of the Canal needs no prophetic vision to see that in the Legis

granted, and you are then at the mercy of the
spendthrifts. The limitation is clearly too low. If
you will turn to the last report of the Auditor of
the Canal Department you will find at page 46 the
estimated cost of these locks on the Erie and Os-
wego canals alone as follows:
For wood locks,.
Wood and stone,.
Stone locks,...

$12,619,040 15

lature of this State, in your canal board, and among | chaff, and every man of experience here knows your public officers, if it is claimed that these it. And in this case they will expend the eight boats cannot navigate the present water-way millions of dollars, and then, if your work is half of the canal and I firmly believe they never can- completed, they will come back with the glory of that this authority is sufficient to enable the whole the canals, the glory of De Witt Clinton, water-way of the canal to be enlarged at an ex- the glory of expending more money, in pense that no man has estimated and no man their mouths, and with the assertion, which can estimate. Again, they say the work shall be would then be true, that the money already exconfined within the "present limits" of said ca-pended would be lost unless more money is nals. Now, to the "casual reader," as my friend from Ontario [Mr. Lapham] would say, to the most unsophisticated in these canal matters, these words would be taken to mean only the actual water-way of the canal. What are the limits of the canals? It is not the water-way of the canal. Go over to your canal department, look at your maps in connection with the statute, and you will find that on each side of the waterway is a space of about thirty feet wide, called the blue line, and this blue line is the limit of the canals. Sir, if the work is to be confined within the limits of the canals, namely, within the blue line, some thirty feet wide on each side, yon have authority to enlarge your canals sixty feet wider than they now are. Then, at the bottom of the article, they have said, "except as provided in this article," the general width and depth of the canals shall remain as at present existing Of course, if the authority for a general enlargement was conferred before that exception occurs in the article, the limitation which follows does not affect it, and the authority would exist to enter upon the gigantic work of making a full enlargement of the canal from one end to the other, notwithstanding the subsequent limitation that the general width and depth of the caual shall remain as at present, except as authorized by law. I believe that in the second edition of this report the committee have put in the word "now." Is that so?

A DELEGATE-It is so.

13,049,946 65 14,405,888 15 This estimate includes the enlargement of the locks, the work of removing the wall-benches, additional feeders to the reservoirs, and such work as was deemed necessary by the engineers in order to bring into use the enlarged capacity of the locks; but it does not provide at all for any enlargement of the water-way at any of the points on the canal, in any respect whatever. Everything that shall be found necessary in that direction to enlarge the water-way of the canals, which I say this section authorizes from one end of the canal to the other, is outside of any esti mate that has been made for this work.

Mr. VERPLANCK-From what does the gen tleman read?

Mr. CHURCH-I have in my hand the State Engineer's report for 1867-page 13. The Auditor says, "It will be doubtful whether the sum will be sufficient to pay the cost of the work should either plan be adopted;" and yet the Canal Committee, for the purpose of sugar-coating this proposition for the benefit of the Convention, have actually reduced one-third the estimate Mr. CHURCH-So it reads "as now author- which was made by the engineers for the limited ized by law," but it does not limit or qualify the amount of work which they did estimate. Now, I authority conferred by the preceding portions of appeal to men of experience, to every gentleman this section. I now ask the committee whether of this Convention, whether it is not a known they supposed that any such proposition was and conceded fact that work always costs more contemplated; and if not, whether the proposed than is provided in the estimate of engineers. article of the Canal Committee is not slightly This result is so general and uniform that I do deceptive? But they have limited the sum. not recollect a single exception upon the public That is the only limitation contained in this pro- works of the State. But all will see, I think, the vision for doing this work; they have limited the reason why this limit is of no practical importance sum to eight millions of dollars. After authoriz- when we come to look at the other provisions of the ing, as I claim, the enlargement of the aqueducts, section. This amount has been fixed at eight millions and the other structures upon the canals, includ- of dollars, for the purpose of inducing this Conven ing the locks and the entire water-way, if it shall tion to swallow this gigantic scheme for the expen be found more convenient for the purpose of diture of money. In the testimony before the comnavigating these large boats, they then have mittee upon this subject, it is stated that it will kindly limited the amount of expenditure to eight cost a million of dollars to procure additional millions of dollars for this work! Now, as a water, while the amount estimated is less than matter of practice in the history of this State, the four hundred thousand dollars. The State Enlimitation of the amount to be expended is of no gineer himself gave testimony that it would cost, Bort of consequence. We all know it. If you com-in his opinion, at least a million of dollars. If it mence a work to cost fifty millions, and limit it to five millions, when you get your five millions expended a pressure will come upon the legislative body that the money you have expended lost unless you proceed to expend more. No matter though you put that limitation in the Constitution of the State, it will be swept away like

does not cost two millions of dollars I shall be greatly mistaken, and it will be unlike any other work that has been done in the State. Besides that, the engineers testify that it will require, at all events, other work than that estimated upon the water-way at a good many points along the line of the canals. Mr. Van R. Richmond, who

was called before this committee, testified that eral fund debt. Then, by section 3 of the pres the large-sized boat cannot navigate the present ent Constitution, you are required, after comwater-way on the canal without considerable plying with the first and second sections, to pay work being done at various points, and he gives the interest on what is called the enlargement it as his opinion that the whole water-way debt of $10,800,000, and set apart enough as a should be enlarged, and there are new reservoirs sinking fund to pay the principal within eighteen to be built, and all the weigh-locks must be re- years. These are the pledges of the present built if you enter upon this scheme. Then, as to Constitution, and these pledges require over three all the short levels. So much water will be let millions of dollars a year for this year and the down by these large locks as to overflow the next year, and after that time over $2,700,000 a banks of the canal, and it will be necessary to year for the next five years, until the general fund make large ponds, large enough upon these short debt is paid, aud the whole of the revenues afterlevels to hold the surplus water. All these award, until the enlargement debt is paid. The provements must be made at a large expenditure, provision reported by the Committee on Canals and none of them are specified in the estimates. violates every one of the pledges of the present Yet these gentlemen undertake to liant the Constitutior-every one of them. In the first amount of this work to eight millions of dol- place, after paying expenses of the collection, lars. But, sir, let us pass to other provisions superintendence, etc., it provides for the payof this scheme. We will turn to the financial meut of the interest upon the foregoing debts, part of the report, and the first thing that strikes and such of the principal only of the two canal me is in the second line of the seventh section-debts falling due within the year. The Canal "After paying the expenses of collection and Committee seem to have found out that for the repairs of the canals of this State, there shall be next four years only a comparatively small amount set apart," etc. There is a word left out of that of these debts come due, and they therefore prosection which is most significant and important-pose to take the sinking funds which the Conthe word "ordinary," before repairs." In the stitution requires to be accumulated until the present Constitution of the State, you will find debts fall due and then applied to their payment, that after paying the expenses of collection and and appropriate them upon the canals, and when superintendence, and ordinary repairs of the the debts mature to borrow money or tax the canals, it is provided that the surplus shall be people to pay them. They in fact take nearly used so and so. But these gentlemen propose to the whole of the sinking funds, except what is go into the revenues of the canals and take ex- necessary to pay the interest on the debts, for penses of collection, and superintendence, and of several years, and appropriate them to other all repairs, ordinary and extraordinary, before you purposes than those required by the Constitucan apply one single dollar to the paymeut even tion. They postpone the lien of the general of the interest, much less the principal of any fund debt in the revenues to that of the enlargeof the debts of the State. ment debt, and they even take nearly three millions of dollars now in the sinking funds, and " sacredly" pledged to the public creditors, and squander it upon the canals. Now, you have promised the creditor holding this old canal debt of 1846 that you would pay him from the reve uues of the canal $1,700,000 a year until that debt was provided for. You have promised the credi tors of the general fund debt that next to the canal debt of 1846 they should have preference upon the revenues of the canals, and that there should be set apart $1,500,000 until the debt was paid, and the balance of revenues should be applied as a sinking fund for the enlargement debt. Mr. CHURCH-I have been informed, although I ask gentlemen of this Convention, I ask every I will not vouch for its truth, that this subject honest man, what right we have to take this was discussed by the Canal Committee, and that $1.700,000 which we have promised to the public they deliberately omitted this word in their pro- creditor, and the $1,500,000 which we have promvision. But I accept the disclaimer of my friend ised to the public creditor, and expend them upon from Ontario [Mr. Lapham]. and am very glad to the canals or for other purposes What right find even this improvement consented to. Now, have we to change the priority of liens of these how do they propose to dispose of the revenues debts? And, above all, what excuse is there of the canals? What is their financial arrange- for filching the money already in the sinking ment? By the terms of the present Constitution fund, and appropriating it to other purposes? we have $1,700,000 appropriated, in the first This money was borrowed under the present place, and set apart to pay the old canal Constitution. It was obtained under the solemn debt of 1846, which you will see in the first pledge contained in that instrument, and the section of the article reported by the gentle creditors have a right to demand of the people man from Ontario [Mr. Lapham]. Three of the State that these pledges shall be fath hundred and fifty thousand dollars to pay the fully carried out. Now, sir, I hold that these interest upon the general fund debt, which makes financial provisions violate the public faith ara $2.000.000, or something over, to pay the old a disgrace to the people of New York, and a dis canal debt of 1846, and the interest on the gen- grace to the credit of New York. Sir, upon what

Mr. LAPHAM- This is a misprint. The word "ordinary " should be there. It is not the intention of the committee to provide for anything except ordinary repairs in that

article.

Mr. CHURCH—I am very glad to learn that some of the defects of this article are occasioned by accident and not by design. I thought this must have been occasioned by design, from the fact that we have had two editions of this report printed and put upon our tables.

Mr. LAPHAM-One report was printed and copied from the other.

66

been simply to show that the programme proposed here by the Canal Committee is unacceptable and ought to be rejected. But if we are to enter upon this question of enlargement the people will never become a party to this fraud. If you incorporate these provisions in the Constitution, and ask the people to approve it, I know that they will spurn it with indignation and contempt. If it is so desirable as gentlemen claim it is, there is a way to do it and preserve our horor; but it is not the way which the Canal Committee have proposed. Why, sir, I greatly prefer the minority report of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Hatch], if we are to enter upon this scheme. His proposition has the merit, at least, of being an honest proposi tion. He proposes to borrow the money which he claims is necessary, and proposes to pay that money, as I understand it (although I have not examined it carefully), after the pledges of the present Constitution are complied with. That, sir, may be done; but you must do one of two things if you will enter into this project—either borrow the money and pledge the revenues subject to the present liens and obligations upon them, or else you must borrow that money and pay the interest by taxation; or else, thirdly, you must tax the people to do the work. But it is more than doubtful, sir, whether the plan proposed by the Canal Committee will accomplish their object, even if it was right to adopt it. It would depend somewhat upon the amount of revenues which you are to derive from your canals. I have had an estimate

is the credit of the State based? It does not de- | plighted faith and honor of the people of the pend, sir, upon your broad acres, upon your mag- State. I have, perhaps, said all that I ought to nificent buildings, upon your public improvements; say on this question at this time. My object has it depends solely and entirely (and that is all that the public creditor has to rely on) upon the honor of the people-upon the good faith of the people. It is no answer to this to say that New York is responsible for all that they have borrowed, and for this additional sum; it is no answer to say that. The question is whether you will abide by your agreement. There is no remedy against the State to compel a fulfillment of its obligations. Its honor and the honor of the people is all that the creditor has to rely on, When Mississippi repudiated its public debt that State was worth a thousand times more than the debt which she repudiated; and the same may be said of Pennsylvania, who faltered in her agreement for a time, of Indiana, Illinois, and other Western States. But the very moment that they faltered in living up to their agreements, their stocks went down from ten per cent above par, to more than eighty per cent below. If the State of New York, which has boasted of her credit time out of mind,whose stock in every financial center of the old world as well as in this, have occupied a high position if the State of New York by this Convention representing the people of the State will say, we will deliberately set this precedent of violating all our agreements in relation to our financial provisions," I tell you no man will ever have any confidence in the credit or honor of this State in financial matters again. They never can have; they never ought to have; because, if you can do this, you can, by and by, after a lapse of a few years, and when we have degenerated a little low-made by the accountant in the canal department er in financial honor, when we have become a lit- of the amount of moneys which the Canal Comtle more demoralized by this financial mania which mittee would get under their proposition, assumhas spread over the country, say that we will ing that the annual revenues of the canals were further postpone these debts for ten or twenty $2,418,000. I think, for the purpose of basing years more, and by and by our successors may any financial action, the estimate is as large as it come up and say they have been postponed so ought to be. It is possible that the revenues may long that we may now wipe them out entirely. be more than that; but I think no fair, safe, pruNo, sir; there is only one way for this State to dent man would proceed upon any financial maintain its honor, its character, its good faith; arrangement, or proceed in the expenditure of a and that is to live up scrupulously-scrupulously large amount of money based upon an estimate to every agreement with a public creditor. larger than that. This estimate of $2,418,000 is New York has heretofore always done that. The the average net revenues for the last ten years. amendment of 1854 provided expressly that all The Canal Committee, as I understand it, take the the previous pledges of the Constitution should be average net revenues for the past seven years, complied with before they were entitled to one and then they add about $100,000 to that. They dollar of money, and this is the first time in the call the revenues three millions of dollars. For history of this State that a proposition has been the past seven years these revenues have been made deliberately to violate our agreements about $2,900,000; but I believe that the revenues with the public creditors. Never before, sir, in cannot be held up to the average of the past seven any Constitutional Convention, or before the peo-years, for if you take the seven years prior to the ple, or even before the Legislature, as corrupt as last seven years you will find that the average it is alleged to be, has there been a proposition net revenues were only about half that made that the State of New York should violate sum, or $1,500,000. But for the last its honor and its obligations to the public creditor. ten years they have been $2,418,000. We all But these gentlemen come forward and do it, not know that three, at least, of the past seven years, only putting it in plain language in their provi- have been exceptional years. We all know that sion, but they stand up here to defend it. And the Erie canal has had thrown upon it an imnothing more illustrates the degeneracy of mense amount of business in consequence of the the public mind, nothing more illustrates war. The war blockaded the Mississippi; it the depth of bankruptcy to which this coun-blockaded many of the roads leading from the try is floating, than this spectacle we see West in a southerly direction, and some of those here of honorable and distinguished men running in an easterly direction. It substantially standing up in this Convention to violate the blockaded, for a long period of time, the Baltimore