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nd Ohio railroad, and, for a considerable portion jamouut of expenditure upon that estimate. Now, f the time, the Peonsylvania Central and other if the Convention were going to undertake this ailroads further south; and it entirely blockaded work, the question is, whether they will run the he Mississippi. Consequently, large amounts of risk, if they deem it so necessary and desirable, iroperty were forced in this direction, and upon of being prevented in 1870 from going on with he Erie canal, which would not otherwise have the work for ten years thereafter; and I submit ome here. It is unsafe, I submit, to base a large to members of this Conveution whether they xpenditure of money upon the revenues in those would not run that risk by adopting this estimate 'xceptional years. It is not prudent nor careful of three millions a year, which is about $100,000 nanagement to do so. Assuming, then, that the more than the average of the last seven years. Average of the last ten years is a fair average of Now, sir, I have said all that I desire to say in he net revenues of the canals, I have ascertained relation to the propositions submitted by the hat, according to the section proposed by the Canal Committee, and I desire to repeat that I Canal Committee, they will get down to 1870, have spoken with great freedom and frankness, something over four millions of dollars; and then because I believe those provisions deserve it; Í hey get nothing. according to their own pro- believe that this Convention, when they euter gramme, from 1870 to 1880—not one dollar. upon this scheme, should do it with their eyes

M1. PROSSER-I inquire from what report the open. At the same time, I desire to repeat, howgentleman reads when he speaks of four millions ? ever, that I have no intention to reflect upon the

Mr. CHURCH-Well, sir, I read from a state-honesty and good faith of the committee wiv ment made by the accountant in the auditor's de- have reported these provisions to the Convention. parimeut, by which he shows that on the first The gentleman from Ontario (Mr. inpham has day of October, 1868, the Canal Coinmittee can told us that he has no interest in this take from the sinking funds two millious and a question; that he has examined it for the first half; on the first of October, 1869, they can take time in his life, and has become an enthusiastic one milliou two hundred thousand; on the convert to this policy of debt and expenditure. first of Ocwber, 1970, l!icy can take one For my own part, sir, unlike that gentleman, I have million Ole lundred a:id several thonsaud, had some experience in relatiou to these matters, which makes lictwecu !o:r and live millious of I have leard the glories of the Erie canal talked dollars.

about before, when money was desired to be exMr. PROSSER-I would ask ile tuille li to i peuded. I have lieard before how great and point out to the conmillec wlereiu the l'omonillco i glorious were these works, and how great and on Canals, in providing for thio inicrest itid princi-| glorious were the men who projected them and pal of the canal deht falling duc and w le puid iu carried them forward. But I never did think, and 1878, aud in providing for the interest on tlie I do not uow' think, that such cousiderations alone general fund debt duo in tho mcan linie, have ought to insure the adoption of any specific measure made any error, upon the supposition that there of expenditure wliich may be proposed to a Con. would be three millions net revenue in making stitutional Convention, or the Legislature, or the the $7,600,000, the first of January, 1870. people. It is enough for us to say that we have

Mr. CHURCH-If the gentleman from Erie these works upon our hands and must take care (Mr. Prosser] had listened to my remarks, he of them. For one, I am in favor of continuing would have discovered how uonecessary it was them in the possession of the State. I would for him to make this interruption; for I was pro- have the State nourish and cherish them, and ceeding upon the ground that the net revenues protect them, and make them as usoful as it is of the canals could only be safely caiculated at possible to make them; I would have these canals $2,418,000.

free from debt; I would have the commerce that Mr. PROSSER-One other question, if the gen I passes over them free from taxes or tolls; and I tleman please. I will inquire whether, in the would have free and open highwaya, not only to gentleman's judgment, the year 1866 was an excitizens of this State, but to the citizens of the ceptional year for the revenue, as were the other whole country, as a line of transit from the West years?

to the financial center of the country. The objec. Mr. CHURCH_The year 1866 was in some tion I have to the management of the canals, respects an exceptional year, for the reason that heretofore and now, is in relation to their finan. all kinds of produce ruled at very high prices;cial management. I say it is a mistake, sir, a and when that is the case an extraordinary grave mistake, to load these canals down with amount is sent forward. If the gentleman will debt. It always was a mistake. It can be demtake this present year, during which prices have onstrated as plainly as mathematics can demonalso ruled high, and which year expires on the strate that two and two make four, that if you first of October next, in less than thirty days from had never borrowed oue dollar to enlarge your this time, he will find that the net revenues will canals, but had applied the revenues faithfully not be more than $2,418,000. Yet we have had, from year to year, your enlargement would have during the whole year, as I have said, very high been completed before it was completed, and you prices for all kinds of produce, which has in. would have been out of debt, and your commerce duced the sending forward of a larger amount free from taxation. Sir, we have arrived at the than usual. The point to which I desire to call point now when we can accomplish that object. the allention of the Convention is this: I do not within a few short years this outstanding debt say that it is impossible that three millions of dol- of the State can be paid. If the estimate of the lars may be realized as the net revenues from the Capal Committee is correct, it can be paid in eight cabals ; I do say that it is unsafe to base a large years; if the estimate we have made is correct, it

can be paid in e even years. These years, sir, are one or two other subjects upon which, while will soon roll round; and in the mean time we can I am up, perhaps I might as well make a few devise some way to facilitate navigation upon the comments lo relation to now, as at any other canals. We can keep them iu better repair ; we time. This proposed enlargement of the canal is can invite the commerce of the West to pass over pot necessary, in my judgment at this time. It them; and when that debt is paid, we can remove is premature. I do not mean to say that it never these tolls, which operate as a greater obstruction will be necessary; I have takea no such ground to the commerce of the country than your in the report, nor anywhere. It is not necessary parrow locks. Yes, sir; and that is the precise for me to take any such ground. But I do take issue between the Canal Committee and myself

. the ground that at this time it is unuecessary. I I believe it is the policy of this State to pay off aver that the canals are capable ci carrying a this outstanding debt, remove your tolls, and very large amount more than they now du. I cheapen your transportation by about one-third. aver that the capacity ci the cauals has They believe it is better to run in debt, and at. not been reached by more than one-half, to tempt to increase the facilities on the canal itself, speak within bounds; and I do not believe and keep up and perpetuate the tolls. That is there is a practical, disinterested man in the State, the issue between us exactly; and upon that conversant with these sučjects, who believes there issue I am willing to go to the people of this is any necessity for this enlargement for the purState; I am willing to go to the men who use pose of carrying all the produce or all the propthese canals, and navigate them; I am willi to erty which will be brought, or is being ught go to the people of the West, who feel so niuch to the canals for trubeport. There are various interest in them, and let them determine whether ways of ascertaining whether these canals aro they prefer these large exactions upon the com- overtaxed with beiress. In the first place, it wo merce passing over these canals, or whether they go to the reports of our State officers who liavo are willing to wait for a few short years, until charge of the canals, you will find that uniformly this outstanding debt shall be paid, when we will they have shown that the capacity of the Wals be enabled to remove the tolls down to the stand- has not been reached by one.lalf. Tikr tlic seo ard of keepiug them in repair. That is the issue ports of our State Engineer, ille onlicer who, of all between us exactly; and I desire the Convention others, is the most competent to make an esti. to understand it, so that we may not have this mate on this subject; and for the last tive, six, question decided upon any false issue. And I seven years, in overy one of the reports, this sub say that every foot wider you make your locks, ject has been discussed, and in every one of you fill them up two feet by your tolls and taxes them these officers have determined that the on coqumerce. That is the effect of it; it bas capacity of the canals has not been reached by at always been the effect of it. My friend from least one-half. The present State Engineer, not Ontario (Mr. Lapham] says we would have had only in his report, but in his testimony before this much more revenues during certain years if the very Canal Cumınittee, las said that the capacity canal board had not reduced the tolls. Well, of the canal, assuming that the business will innow, how does he prove that? How docs any crease for the next few years as much as it has man prove that, if the tolls had not been reduced in the past, will not be reached before 1882. in those years, we should have had more revenues ? Mr. HATCH_Will the gentleman allow me to I should like to have the gentleman from Ontario ask a question ? I have not the report of the (Mr. Lapham), who evinces all the enthusiaism of a State Engineer here, but does not the gentleman

on this question, tell us how he know that the present State Eogineer recommends arrives at that conclusion. It does not follow, by the enlargement of the Erie canal ? any means. Those years, sir, were years of de. Mr. CHURCH-I have no doubt that the pres. pression. And the gentleman has iold us that ent State Engineer, and almost every other engithe commerce upon the railroads, as well as upon neer in the State, will advocate the expendituro the canals, fell off very largely. So it did. Thiey of any amount of money that this Couvention were years of great competition for a small might authorize; but, sir, I know on that subject amount of business, on the canals and on tho that the present State Engineer—as anxious as railroads. And, sir, I undertake to say (and I engineers ordinarily are for the expenditure of was an actor in the board which reduced the wlly money-regards it as unwise and unnecessary to during a part of those years), that but for the re- provide for this enlargement in tho Constitution. duction of the tolls during those years, we would He has repeatedly told me so, and I have vo not have received as much money as we did. I doubt that is his opinion. undertake to say that it was the reduction of the Mr. HATCH–The propositions in his report tolls that saved us the commerce that we got. as sworn to, are entirely different. That was the ground on which it was placed Mr. CHURCH-Undoubtedly. I am speaking after full investigation. The Legislatore relieved only of the capacity of the canals. the railroads from the imposition of tolls in 1851,

Nir. HATCH-We look at his reports for eviwhich enabled them to compete more sharpls dence of his opinions. with the canals; and the commerce was very Mr. CHURCH—The question to which the genlight. Business was very much depressed; and tleman called my attention was not the question it was necessary, in order to retirin the business that I was discussing. Whether the State Engi. that we got, to reduce the tolls to some extent. neer is in fator of this project or against it is a It is not true, therefore, that the reduction of the matter of no sort of importance to me. I only tolls tended necessarily, or in fact, tio reduce the say, in answer to the geutleman from Erie (Mr. revenues derived from the cawals. Lut, sir, there'llatch], that the State Engineer did stato to me

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on different occasions that he thought it unwise known of no obstructions in the navigation of the and uunecessary to adopt this measure in the canal, the passage of boats; is it not a fact that Constitution.

during the latter part of September, and the Mr. HATCH-The gentleman, in his report, months of October avd November, in a good searefers, as authority, to the present State Engineer, son for western products, that the boats are hin. for very material statements that he makes in his dered in passing by lack of room? A. Well, reporis.

there are a variety of causes that go to make up Mr. CHURCH—Yes; and it does not follow these delays; there is a want of efficiency in the from that that he may not have made some other working of the locks—in the management of the statements in his report that I do not concur lockages." with.

But they press him still further : Mr. HATCH_Privately.

Q. We ask it as a practical question? A. I Mr. CHURCH-Or publicly, either. I was don't know that there are any great delays that talking about the capacity of the canals; and I fall under my observation.” say that our present State Engineer, in his re There is the evidence of your present State En. ports, and in his evidence before the Canal Com-gineer, called to make out the case of the Capal mittee, has shown—not as a mere matter of opin. Committee. Take Mr. Van R. Richmond, than ion—but he has demonstrated that the capacity whom a more honest and capable public officer of the canals will not be reached, assuming that never was iu the employ of this State, and he the business is to increase in the same ratio that says in his report of 1861, which gentlemen it has increased, before 1882. That is fifteen can examine for themselves, and has demonstra. years, I think, from this time.

ted that this canal is capable of bringing to tideMr. HATCH-I will state that the present En. water 5,220,000 tons of property, and it never gineer repudiates that statement which you have has brought to tide-water three millions of tong. there. He states, in reply to a letter—which I The largest amount was in 1862, when it fell have not got liere—that Commissioner Bruce gave short of three millions of tons. I desire to read him a basis for a certain calculation, on which it what he says before the Canal Committee on that should be made, and upon the strength of which subject : he made the calculations for Commissioner Bruce ; " A. In my annual report in 1861, to the Legig. but he says, “If you want to know what my lature, I made an estimate of the capacity, as opinions are about the Erie canal I will refer you near as I could, and it is as near as anything I to my reports."

can get at now, probably; it is equal to a tontage, Mr. CHURCH-It is of his report I have to furnish ample facilities for the delivery through spoken. Let me read a little from the evidence the Erie canal to tide-water of 5,220,000 tons. of Mr. Goodsell before the Canal Committee. He "Q. That is averaging through the year? A. was called as their witness, to prove that the Yes, sir; and the revenue with the same rate of canal was overburdened and overtaxed with | lolls as charged in 1860, $6,902,318; they each business. That was the object of introducing the have refereuce to an equal distribution of busi. testimony.

"Q. What is your opinion as to the capacity of "Q. As to the business in fact which has been the present locks to accommodate the business done, what has been your observation as to the and the emergencies of trade? A. Well, sir, capacity of the locks ? A. There are times, that is a somewhat difficult question to answer.

of
course, when it is

than others; "Q. Give us the result of your observations, as I never recollect seeing the canal when i a practical question. A. If trade could be dis. thought it overtaxed; I have

it tributed uniforinly upon the canal, my judg. crowded, but when there has been a sullicient ment is that the present locks would answer supply of water and busir.ess moving uniformly for the next fifteen years. The maximum ca. along, I do not even remember noticing the timo pacity of these locks would not be reached when the canal was overtaxed; it might be so within about fifteen or twenty years; but you and I not have noticed it; I have not been on it can't distribute the trade uniformly through for five or six years sinre 1862." the season; you can't force the spring and The year 1862 was the year when we had the fall crops into the summer months, so that some largest amount of business, and when there was months they are taxed to their full capacity, while most ivconvenience in passing locks. But the others liardly at all.

gentleman from Ontario (Mr. Lapham) bas, and "Q. Are there not seasons now when they are the Canal Committee in their report have told us overtexed ? A. I have never known the double that this mode of estimating the capacity of the locks to be overtaxed, sir. There are instances canal was fallucious. They say that these estiwhere there are cases of a week of a large crowd mates are based upon a uniform transit of propof boats, but that is exceptional.”

eriy in boats over the canal, and that in point of Now, that is what the Slate Engineer has told fact it is not true that property passes uniformly us the most recent thing that he has said on the over the canals—that business is crowded into a subject. But the Canal Committee were not sat. / few weeks in the fall and a few weeks in the istied with these answers. They examined him spring, and that in the summer months the canal on a variety of other subjects; and, for the pur. is almost entirely deserted. Now, this is the pose, I suppose, of qualifying these answers in argument of the Canal Committee, as I under. some way or other, they asked him this ques. stand it. I say the argument is fallacious; the

fact is not so, as I will show to this Convention "Q. I understood you to say that you had l by a few statistics which I have here. I have

uess.

more

seen

tion:

obtained from the canal department the number had been true that property was coming to your of lockages in thirteen locks of the Erie canal in canals that could not be carried over them, you every month of the three years 1864, 1865 and would have heard such a bowling from the docks 1866. Let us see whether it is true that the busi. in Buffalo to the docks in New York, as would ness of these canals is crowded into one or two have waked up the entire people of the State to of the fall months or the spriog months. I will come to the rescue, to provide more money for take 1864 in the first place. The number of the canals. We did that business; we did it lockages in May was 31,000 (I will not read the easily and comfortably and conveniently; and, odd numbers); in June, 40.000; in July, 39,000; sir, according to a fair calculation, it will be many in August, 42,000; in September, when the years before you reach the amount of property crowding commenced, according to these gentle. that we carried over the canals in 1862. men, 37,000; in October, when the crowdivg Mr. LAPHAM-In 1862 the total tonnage was culminates, 37,000; in November, 30,000, and in 5,598,785; in 1863 it was 5,557,692; and in 1866 December a very small number. The largest it was 5,775,320, or greater than either of the number of lockages was in the month of August. foregoing years. and in that month there were 5.000 more lock. Mr. CHURCH—The gentleman is now taking ages than there were in the month of October, the whole tonnage of the canals. and when these gentlemen say the canal is most

Mr. LAPHAM Certainly.I am. crowded. Now, let us take the next year, 1865. Mr. CHURCH--I take.it, so far as tonnage is In May, 20,000 ; in June, 27,000; in July, 32,000'; concerned, budy has ever had the impudence in August, 35,000; in September, 35,000; in Oc- to claim that there is any lack of capacity to carry tober, 38,000, and in November, 33,000. In that all tonnage going westward; it is only the tonyear there was only 3,000 difference in the nage coming to tide-water that there has ever month of October and the month of August. I been any complaiut about. I say that in 1862 was surprised myself to some extent_although I they carried from five hundred thousand to a knew this pretense was not true, as a matter of million more tons than in any other year to tidepractical knowledge—but I was somewhat eur. water; that they carried more than they will prised to find how uniformly the business on the reach, in my judgment, for many years. canals was done throughout the season. In 1866, Mr. ALVORD-In 1862 they carried 3,402, 709; last year, May, 25,000; June, 30,000; July, in 1866, 3.305.607. 39,000; August, 43,000, and in September, when Mr. CHURCH–That, I am sorry to say, is not the crowding commerces, 41,000; October, when the precise fact. Your three million takes in the the crowding culminates, 40,000; November, property coming from the Erie canal and the 35,000. Again, you find in July and August a Champlain canal. larger number of lockages than you had in Sep Mr. ALVORD-Certainly. tem her or October, but there is a remarkable Mr. CHURCH-Well, now, I take it that the uniformity all through the season. It is very locks on the Erie canal are not very much crowd. easy to account for that uniformity, because, sir, ed from boats coming from the Champlain canal the men who do business on these canals under. Mr. LAPHAM-If the gentleman will allow me, stand their business. They are perhaps as sharp, the tonnage on the canal in 1862 was 2,917,000 shrewd and keen business men as are engaged in tons; in 1863, 2,647,000 tons; and in 1866, any business in the world. And the men who 2,523,000 tons. deal in the products of the forest, such as lumber Mr. CHURCH-Precisely what I said. and other products, and in coal—which are arti. Mr. LAPHAM-What! a million difference ? cles when the greatest increase of business is to Mr. CHURCH-I said five hundred thousand be found on the canals—do their business in July or a million, did I nnt? I have shown that these and August. They take the months when the gentlemen have evidence before them from two canals are not needed for the produce of the of the State Engineers that these canals were not country. The wheat and corn is carried in the overtaxed in point of fact nor overburdened. fall and spring-corn in the spring and wheat in Well, sir, they called another witness by the name the fall, and very little in the summer months ; 01but the other articles of property, such as lumber The hour of two o'clock having arrived, the and coal, are carried mostly in the summer PRESIDENT resumed the chair in Convention, months; and in that maoner you equalize the and announced that, under the standing order, the business of the canals and make it uniform. Convention would take a recess until tour o'clock. For that reason these estimates, which have been made the basis of ascertaining

AFTERNOON SESSION. how long it will take to pass a lock with The Convention re-assembled at four. o'clock, a boat and how much that boat will carry, is a and again resolved itself into Committee of the fair, legitimate way of ascertaining the capacity of Whole on the reports of the Committee on the the canals. There is another consideration about Finances of the State and the Committee on Ca. the capacity of the canals. We did the business nals, Mr. SHERMAN, of Oneida, in the chair. in 1862, when the canals carried from 500,000 to Mr. CHURCH-Mr. Chairman, when the com 1,000,000 more tons than they ever carried be. mittee rose I was referring to the testimony of a fore; and how many members of this Convention witness by the name of Breed, called by the Com. before we assembled here, ever heard that the mittee on Canals, to prove that the canal was canals were

overtaxed and overburdened ? overtaxed and burdened beyond its capacity I How many members of this Convention ever suppose that there have been times when detenheard of it during that period ? Why, sir, if it tions have occurred upon the canal. I suppose

on

there will be times, whatever you do with the be your judgment that that was the utmost cacanals, when detentions will occur upon them. It pacity of the canal to pass boats at Syracuse ? is impossible, by any exper diture of money, to A. At that particular season of the year you may prevent these detentions at times at some of the know that the horses and men are worn, and half locks and for some reasons. This witness, it of the boats want men; the horses are unable to seems, was called by the Committee as a kind of pass the boats in and out. expert upon the subject. He had been a con "Q. We must deal with things practically as tractor upon canals, and had been a superintendent they have been and are to be. Now if we find upon a canal, residing at Syracuse. He was in. at the Auditor's department that the number pass. quired of by the chairman :

ing at the latter part of November is a given sum, "Q. Will it necessarily arise in the future, pro. may we then say that that is the practical capaviding the canals are unchanged, that there will city to pass boats at that point at that period of be detentions at certain periods from the causes of the year? A. Your idea is to get at the ca. already mentioned ? A. I do not suppose it is pacity of the canals ? possible to construct a canal so there will be no "Q. The idea is, if the canal did at that detentions.

period all that could be reasonably and fairly "Q. I mean detentions from the inability of the done? A. Here comes the question: it may locks, as they now are, to take boats through take one man half an hour to pass a boat as rapidly as commerce would require them to which could be passed in fifteen minutes; the be locked through. A. I think detentions are capacity of the canal is one thing and the habits unavoidable.

of men another. "Q. Do you think an enlarged lock of twenty. "Q. Take it as it will be? A. You may fire by one hundred feet. a single tier of such lock boats from six to twelve an hour, with locką would add to the capacity of the canal in a good class of boatmen ready to move in the way of lockage? A. My idea is, you will whenever the lock is open, and you may is. have the same detentions no matter how you con crease the number to fifteen or twenty boats, blit struct it.

the next few hours you may have to get extra "Q. Aside from accidents, do you think there teams to fetch in the boats—it is all draw." will be detentions? A. Perhaps not; nor would There is the testimony of this expert who has it with its present capacity; you would not, been brought here from Syracuse to show that at aside from accidents, have very much deten that particular lock there were such detentioas tions if it was properly managed."

that this Convention is authorized to expend laryo I desire gentlemen to look at this for a moment. sums of money to enlarge the canals. He toils The only point where the Canal Committee have you that if the boats are properly managed you pretended, by the evidence which they have may lock through from six to twelve an hour. If brought before themselves that detentions have it is twelve an hour it is one in five minutes, :d occurred, in order to show that we should enter if it is one in five minutes you can transfer three upon the scheme of enlargement, is at the lock times the amount of property you ever did up th:0 near Syracuse. There seems to be a lock there, canal. He tells you this may be increased from in the vicinity of the weigh-lock-a lock which is fifteen to twenty boats. If you pass twenty builts 80 situated that you are obliged, in. transporting it is one in three minutes, which will carry boats toward tide-water, to lock against the cur through more than four times the amount of propredte These boats have to be drawn in erty which has ever been transported over this against the current, and it is the point canal. And this is at a point where the most where the Oswego canal comes in, Now, difficulty is created, and it is a powt to which I see by the testimony that all the burdens these gentlemen bave directed their evidence, in of the canals are confined to that one lock, and order to satisfy this Convention that this canal this witness was called because he was conver- is overtaxed in point of capacity. Why, it does Sant with that particular lock. And it is probably not require a man of any particular experience in the most difficult lock in the whole canal, a lock navigating the canals of the State to know and where there are more detentions and more diffi. understand that if there is a particular lock where, culties on account of the mingling of these boats in consequence of the circumstances that surround from the weigb-locks and boats. navigating the it, there are crowds of boats occasionally coming Erie canal with boats coming in from the Oswego io, producing detentions-it requires no experience, canal; and yet a practical witness whom they I say, in navigating canals

, to understand that a called tells us and he told the committee that de very slight expense will remedy all these difficultentions will occur upon any canal that you may ties. And we are told by one of the gentlemen make, and that if this lock and the canal were who was examined as a witness before this comproperly managed there would not be any deten mittee, and who was a practical man, that the tion even at this point-the place most difficult trifling expense of putting a tow.path upon the for navigation. But the committee did not seem berme side of the canal at this particuto be entirely satisfied with this gentleman's evi- lar point, 80 that you would have a dence, so they pressed him a little further; and path upon both sides

, would increase the capacity after they had examined him on other subjects, of that lock from thirty to fifty per cent. they returned to this question again and asked The State Engineer has told you that if you will

double the men at this lock, or if you will put a Then by referring to what was done, if we windlass upon it, you can increase its capacity find that the number is 200 boats for the longest very much. Now, I do not believe one word of period, for one week in November, would it then this idea that we 'must go on with this enlarge

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