enabled to decide unbiased upon the merits Senator would represent, two or three times, the and demerits of all the candidates in his population and area of territory that the Assemcounty, and cast his vote for those whom he blymen from those counties would represent. may think best qualified. Permit me now, Mr. Several of the counties form each a senatorial Chairman, to notice very briefly, the objections district, and then the Senator and Assemblymen which I have heard urged against that mode of would each represent the county. But nowhere electing them. The first is, that they will not except in New York is a senate district composed represent the views and sentiments of the people of less than one county, and consequently nonearly so well, as if they were elected from small where but there could an assembly district be districts. There would be force in this objection, larger than a senate district. If we elect Senaif there was a great diversity of interest between tors by the present system, and Assemblymen different parts of those counties who are entitled by counties, we will only have thirty-two senate to more than one member. So far as cities are districts, while we will have sixty assembly concerned, every representative in the Legisla districts, being nearly double the number. It ture. as a general thing, really represents the seems to me, therefore, that there would be no whole city, and not the particular assembly dis- incongruity between the arrangement of senato trict in which he was elected, and with especial and assembly districts. But even if there was, reference to which, he is very rarely, if ever, I think it would be of small account if we could called on to act. As regards the country, I am thereby secure better men. Sir, we should aim not sufficiently acquainted with its peculiar wants to get the very best men, both in the Senate and and necessities to pass an intelligent judgment Assembly, and adopt whatever means will best on the matter. But when I reflect that the State accomplish that purpose. The fourth and last obis divided into sixty counties, each of which is jection that I have heard, is, that even if necessarily composed of a comparatively small we elect them by counties, we will not portion of the territory of the State, the interests get better men, as the central organization of whose inhabitants must be in a great measure will, in making nominations, defer in identical, so far at least as representation in the a great measure to the wishes of the different councils of the State is concerned, it seems to me this objection must fall to the ground. The second objection is, that it will take away the power from the people and place it in the hands of politicians. If this were so I would be the last one to countenance it. Who, let me ask, makes the assembly nominations now? Do the people make them? Are they not in reality made by political organizations in each assembly district, through whose combined and united influence and power, either directly or indirectly, the county nominations are also made? True, sometimes independent candidates are run and supported by citizens who are tired of party rule and party nominations; but we all know how very seldom they are successful. At other times a number of influential citizens in an assembly dis. trict may succeed in procuring the nomination for a certain person from the powers that be, but, as I said before, does it not much more frequently happen that bold and bad men will procure the nominations for their favorites? No, no, Mr. Chairman, when the time shall come that the best, the most honest and most intelligent portion of the community in each assembly district shall be willing to devote the necessary time and attention to this matter, and combine to elect the best men, I shall be in favor of the small district system; but that time is not yet. The third objection is, that inasmuch as the Convention has decided in Committee of the Whole to adhere to the small district system so far as the Senate is concerned, it will not do to enlarge the The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinion present assembly districts, because if we do, that the amendment of the gentleman from Albathe members of the lower house will represent any [Mr. A. J. Parker] is in order, as it seeks to greater number of constituents and a larger area perfect the section rather than to strike out. The of territory than those in the upper house. This, amendment of the gentleman proposes to strke it is true, will be the case in the city and county out the uumber of which the Assembly shall be of New York-which is divided into several composed, as recommended in the report of the senate districts-but nowhere else. In most committee, and insert the present number, one cases it requires either two or three counties to hundred and twenty-eight.

assembly organizations, who will claim the right of naming the candidates. Assuming, for argument's sake, that this will be the case, I still insist that we will then have a much better class of men. The central organization will say to the local organization, "We will nominate any one you name, provided he is a good man, one of whom we need not be ashamed, and whom the people will support." Both parties will be compelled to do this, in order to present as strong a ticket as possible to the people for their suffrages, and if either should fail to do so, the chances are that the good men who belong to that party, those who desire the public good, more than they do party success, would give their votes, and their influence, to the opposition, and thus elect that ticket. It seems to me, therefore, Mr. Chairman. that there is absolutely nothing, in either of these objections against the county system, which is not greatly overbalanced by the many positive good results which will flow from it, and I sincerely hope that the Convention will see fit to adopt it.

во

Mr. A. J. PARKER-I wish to offer another amendment, which I think is now in order. I wish in the first line to change "one hundred and thirty-nine," to one hundred and twenty-eight," so as to retain the present number of members. Mr. MERWIN-That is my amendment. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I know it is, but I wish to reject the rest, all except the change of number to one hundred and twenty eight.

make a senate district, and there, of course, the [ Mr. SEYMOUR-I understand that the amend.

Mr. ALVORD-I shall have to object unless the gentleman consents to limit the time on each Bection, and to limit it on the whole article to one o'clock. I therefore propose that he accept a limitation of the time upon the pending section to twenty minutes, the time on the next section to five minutes.

The PRESIDENT — That amendment is not in, members of Assembly from counties, it is greatly order. desirable that we should attain it; the fact that we elect Senators from small districts in

Mr. WEED-Then I withdraw it.

Mr. ALVORD—I move it be six minutos, and two particular parts of this State seems to me that the debate be closed at one o'clock.

Mr. MERRITT-I accept that amendment. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I ask for a division on the question.

The question was then put upon the first part of the proposition of Mr. Merritt, limiting debate to six minutes, and was declared carried.

The question was then put upon the secord clause of the motion, that the committee rise at half-past one o'clock and report to the Convention, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 63 to 22.

The Convention again resolved itself into Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., Mr. ARCHER, of Wayne, in the chair.

The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be on the amendment offered by Mr. A. J. Parker to the fourth section.

should not weigh against the general proposition as applicable to the whole State. But you have another consideration in reference to the Senate, as the amendment now before this body now stands on this subject; I understand that a longer period of service is to be given; they are to be elected for four years; so you will have for your Senators, although elected from smaller districts, the benefit of longer experience. I think, sir, that it is an important thing to attain this organiza. tion and to sustain it, of the election of our members of Assembly by counties, and it will do much, I think, to raise the character of the body to which these members are to be returned; it gives us a better opportunity of selection; it concentrates the power of the county as a county, and the weight and influence of each county in the State then can be felt as it should be for the benefit of that county, and not be frittered away as it now is under the small district system.

Mr. SEYMOUR-The amendment offered by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], is simply to limit the number of members Mr. WEED-I think that the number of the in the Assembly to the present number, one more numerous House of the Legislature of hundred and twenty-eight, and it is an amend the State of New York is substantially large ment, as I understand it, to the original proposi- enough at the present day. If there were tion of the committee, to wit, that the members no other considerations except a desire to of the Assembly shall be elected by counties, and change, I should be opposed to increasing that not by districts, as was the practice up to the number, but from the peculiar size of quite a Constitution of 1846. I am in favor of this proposi- number of counties in this State, when you divide tion; I am in favor of the election of members the number of inhabitants in the State by the one of the Assembly by counties, and not by hundred and twenty-eight, the present number districts, and I am in favor of limiting the in the Assembly, several counties with a very number of members of Assembly to one hundred large fraction over the requisite population for one, and twenty-eight. There are many considera- are entitled to but one member, though they are tions in favor of electing members of Assem- very nearly entitled to two. I believe that a just bly by counties. It gives opportunity for a representation of those counties in the Assembly better selection; you have the population will induce every member who will sit down and of the entire county to select from; whereas calculates those fractions, to vote to increase the by the small district system you must con- number, as reported by this committee. I am fine your selection to the district from forced to come to that conclusion from the examwhich the member is to be elected. When ination I have given this subject, and for that we reflect that our counties are organizations reason, Mr. Chairman, I shall oppose the amendof long continuance, that the public business is ment offered by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. regulated in reference to counties to a very great A. J. Parker]. In my own county we, for a extent, that it is customary for the people of coun- large number of years, have had more inhabitants ties to meet as a people, as residents of the coun- than entitle that county to two members, but ty, and to act together in relation to their public affairs and matters of importance to them, we must, I think, see that the representation of this population having one concentrated interest together, is better than a representation divided and scattered over a county, among little localities. My time will not allow me to pursue all these considerations, but I commend them to the reflection of every member of this Convention before he votes. The only objection I have heard in reference to this proposition of electing our members by counties is this, that we have already fixed upon senate districts which, in some instances, will divide counties, and therefore if you elect members, for instance in the city of Brooklyn and in the city of New York, by counties, you will elect them from larger districts than you do your Senators. I do not conceive that is any objection. If there is a positive good, as I believe there is, in electing our

because of living upon the borders, quite a number of those inhabitauts are aliens, and we are reduced just below the requisite number for two, only a few hundreds less, I think, at the apportionment before the last, and hence we were reduced to but one. Under this apportionment, making it just and equal to the balance of the State, my county will have two members of Assembly, as it is entitled to by its numbers. I understand it was the desire of the committee, in making the number one hundred and thirty-nine, to accommodate, as far as possible, those counties, having a large fraction over the number of tho present apportionment, to give to those who had more than one-half enough for another member an additional member by reducing the quota, by dividing the whole number by one hundred and thirty-nine, instead of one hundred and twentyeight. For that reason, and believing that increa

sing the number from one hundred and twenty- nearer at the sense of the people than by any eight to one hundred and thirty-nine will not destroy the efficiency of the Assembly, I am in favor of the increase, and, as I said, against the amendment of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker].

other plan we can frame. This committee has already decided that small districts are most advisible in the election of Senators. The same arguments which apply in that case apply with equai and with stronger force to members of Assembly. I hope, therefore, that the single district system for members of Assembly, which is now in force, will be continued. As to the number of members to be selected for the Assembly, there may be a difference of opinion; and upon that point I have not exactly arrived at a conclusion whether it should be increased or not, but I hope by all means, the small district system will be çontinued as being most democratic and most likely to represent the views of the people of this State.

Mr. BERGEN-I think, Mr. Chairman, that the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] was in error when he stated that in small districts the people would be necessarily confined to taking candidates from their districts. I know of no law, and doubt if the gentleman can point to any, that prevents the election or nomination of individuals residing outside of their district as members of Assembly. They would have the same privilege they now have of selecting from any part of the county or any part of the State Mr. LEE-The committee having decided to any elector of the State. There is nothing gained adopt the single senate district system, to carry out by that at all. I am not in favor of the large the idea will, I have no doubt, after due deliberation, district system. If the gentleman's argument decide to adopt the single assembly district syshas any weight, why not elect our members of tem, and thus preserve the system in all its symCongress from the whole State? If his argu-metry. While I should not object to a moderate ments have any force, why not take our members of the Senate from the whole State, so as to have the wide field the gentleman desires to select from? We have the right to do it now.

increase of the members of the Assembly, I think it better to favor the amendment of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], so far as it relates to the number, one hundred and twentyeight. So far as it relates to the district, I should favor the amendment of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Merwin]. It will be conceded, I think, by every member of the committee, that in the Assembly, the most popular branch of the legislative body, it is proper to come down to the body of the people and select from the several localities in the State men who will truly and correctly, and from their intimate relations with their constituents. more ably represent them than it can be done by the selection of men on a general ticket. It is claimed that to nominate and elect by counties wo secure abler men in the Legislature than by single districts. Now, to assume this is to assume that the whole is greater than all its parts; for certainly by the single district system we embrace the wliole in the aggregate. I suppose in that respect no argument worth anything can be drawn in favor of the one or the other on the score of getting abler men. If the people in a special locality choose to elect incompetent men, their interests must suffer, and theirs alone; so there will be nono to complain if that result should happen. They can remedy that difficulty. Perhaps, were I a citizen of Troy, or of Albany, or of Hudson, or of Schenectady, business centers of the counties in which they are, where there is an identity of interest, a community of feeling, I might, like gentlemen representing some of those localities, at least be in favor of electing members of Assembly by county ticket. But, sir, I represent in part a county differently circumstanced. The county of Oswego has sent, and will continue to send if the number of 128 remains, three members to the Assembly. Each of these several assembly districts, while they have cerMr. SCHUMAKER-This is news to me. tain interests in common, yet have a local interest Mr. BERGEN-I understand so. But I say to protect and foster; for example, one district the nearer we can bring these men to the people embracing the city of Oswego, while it has interthey represent the better. The small districts bring ests in common with the other districts, has a them in contact with the people they immediately commercial interest by lake and by canal, which represent, and by that means minorities have is the leading interest; another district lying on representation here, and by that means we arrive the borders of Oneida Lake and the Oneida Lake

Mr. SEYMOUR-Will the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Bergen] permit me to ask him a question? I wish to ask him if the right of selection is, as he says, so extensive, whether he has ever known it to be exercised?

Mr. BERGEN-I have. There have been cases where it has been exercised. There are members here now elected to this Constitutional Convention who do not reside in the district from which they were elected; there are two from the county of Kings at this time. The right has been exercised on various occasions. I hold that the small district system is the democratic system. A pure democracy is where the people assemble together, and each man votes on every question; and the nearer we can approach to this, the nearer we approach pure democracy, which I hold to be the best democracy. In a large population you cannot have all directly participate in the government, but the nearer you get to that point the better. We have a representative, under our present system, from each locality-from each district; we bring him in contact with the party he represents; he knows their views and represents the views of that district.

Mr. SCHUMAKER-Did I understand the gentleman to say that there were two delegates elected from Kings county who do not reside there?

Mr. BERGEN-I say there are two members here now representing districts in Kings county who do not reside in those districts.

Mr. SCHUMAKER-Who are they? Mr. BERGEN-Mr. Barnard and Mr. Lowrey; they reside in the district where I reside.

Improvement, while it shares in common the Assembly, and it has always had it repcertain interests with the city of Oswego, has interests peculiar to its own locality, and the people in that district would desire to send to the Assembly a man who was perfectly familiar with and knew the wishes of his constituents and would honestly represent them. So, too, we have another district which has certain interests in common with the other two, but still its leading interest is in railroad transportation-lying on either side of the Rome and Watertown railroad. Its business interests are transacted over that road and through that channel, consequently when the interests of that people in regard to transportation are to be considered, they desire to be heard, and they desire to be heard through one who understands their interests, and who keeps on guard to see those interests may not be invaded. So that from these several considerations, and many others that might be furnished, I think it is clear

Here the gavel fell, the gentleman's time having expired.

actual personal representation as it is practicable to bring, the organization of government.

resented in the Assembly, and that is what has been called the manor interest-the interest in connection with the title under which they held their land. We have none of that interest in the Troy district, and they have very little of it in the upper district. The city of Troy, which has been a separate assembly district, has had interests of its own every year, in which the rest of the county has had no interest whatever, and the true way of representing the county of Rensselaer has been to allow the lower district to elect its own men according to its own notions to represent it in the peculiar interests that affect the whole people of that district. The city of Troy, has sent its men representing the whole interests of the city of Troy; and so it will be throughout the State. I think if you look at the counties in this State that have more than one representative you will find there are several local interests they represent; but whether that be so or not, I believe the true principle of representative government is to-day Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I am opposed to the what it was at the establishment of the govern proposition of the gentleman from Albany [Mr.ment, that we should come as near to sending the A. J. Parker], and my opposition to it arises from man himself to sit in the Assembly at it is possi the fact that I am in favor of the representation ble to come, that we should come as near to of the people. I utterly repudiate this old federal doctrine, which I had hoped had died out of this country, that devices must be formed to pre- Mr. DUGANNE-I am opposed to the county vent the representation of the people. The doc- or largo and compound representation in the trine of a republican government is that, each man Assembly, because I believe it reverses the prin who is an elector is to participate in the admin- ciple of immediate representation which ought to istration of the government, and if he cannot go be at the base of the popular House. I can see, himself, and participate in legislation, he sends sir, that instead of representing, as it should, the a representative and it has been the policy since single community and the small circle, it may repthis government was established to come as near resent a consolidation of interests which are onto the sending of the man himself to the tirely opposite to the interests of the people. I assembly as it was possible to come, and I can see that in some instances a county repre believe myself that this policy has worked sentative may be nominated and controlled by a well. I do not believe in the doctrine that since county clique of politiciaus; I can suppose that the adoption of the Constitution of 1846 inferior in districts lying upon the Central railroad, that men have been sent to the Assembly of the great interest might control one county after State. I do not believe there is a district in this another, and send its agents or friends in a conState entitled to a representative in the solidated force to the popular branch of the LegisAssembly that has not an abundance of lature; I believe that even the principle of municimen fully capable of coming here and sitting aspal representation, as such, might obtain, in this representatives of the district. I, sir, utterly respect, when, as in the county of New York, the repudiate this doctrine of great men; I know city of New York could send the entire delega very little about great men; men are only rela- tion, and control that delegation for municipal tively great, and men that are great in one sub- interests against the interests of the people, and ject may be very small in another. I believe thus misrepresent a large minority, at least, of that the common-sense men upon this floor are as the voters in that city. For these reasons I am great as the greatest in matters of judgment; and opposed to the county representation, and, morethe more I see of legislation, and the more I see over, I deny the fact that we can get better men of action in public assemblies, the more am I by such mode of representation. I look around confirmed in the impression with which I came me, in this chamber, and can recognize some of here, that the average common sense of men is the gentlemen who have argued that better men the best guide even in matters of legislation. I may be obtained by a county representation, and entirely differ from my colleague [Mr. Seymour] yet those gentlemen themselves have heretofore in regard to the doctrine he has laid down illustrated, by their presence in the Legislature, a hat counties generally have but one system of election from single districts. I can interest. Sir, the assembly districts of the see the honorable gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. county in which I live have by no Alvord], the gentleman from New York (Mr. meaus a unity of interest. Since 1846 it has Opdyke], the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sheralways been the case that the south assembly man], the gentleman who now occupies the district the district lying immediately across the chair [Mr. Archer], the chairman of the commitriver-has had an interest of its own, an interest tee which presented this report [Mr. Merritt], and which it has desired to have represented in many other men whom no one will contend are