couragement given by it to agriculture, increased the wealth of the country to an amount far greater than the sums that had been expended in its construction.

Mr. COBB said, that he believed it had been admitted yesterday that the expenditures had overgone the estimates, and that sufficient had not been granted. I asked, said Mr. C., why gentlemen did not go the whole, and, if they could make the road, why they did not also erect toll gates? The gentleman from Indiana replies to me, and says that a bill for that purpose is now before the Committee on Roads and Canals. He also calls on me to say whether I will support the bill.

Why, said Mr. C., I told the gentleman yesterday that I would not. I said, then, that I was entirely opposed to the system on constitutional scruples; and I now inform the gentleman that he will find in me a steady opponent, whether to measures for the construction of the road, or measures for its repair.

Mr. HENDRICKS said a few words in reply.

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, was unfortunately opposed to appropriations for this road, and not only this, but to appropriations by Congress for all roads, not excepting military roads, the constitutionality of which he doubted. The gentleman from Indiana says that we have repeatedly settled the question; and that it need no longer be agitated. But I think not. It is true that Congress has appropriated for these objects from year to year, under one pretext or another; but I never supposed it was designed that we should continue, from year's end to year's end, to give large sums for these objects. 180,000 dollars was given towards this road; and 30,000 dollars for surveys. I know that the road is very convenient for people coming from the West, and do not doubt its great advantages to the States through which it runs. But my principle is, let every State make its own roads; and, if they reap advantages, let it be from their own industry and perseverance. This would be far more consistent and creditable than to ask, from session to session, appropriations of money from Congress.

[JAN. 23, 1828.

and let them go to decay. And he goes on to state that that great monument of the munificence of the Government-the Cumberland Road-had nearly gone to decay. The appropriation of money, he says, has been made, but little good has been effected in making repairs. I should like to know whether the money appropriated has ever been applied effectually. I should think not; for every year we have applications for the repair or the improvement of this road.

Such are the declarations of your engineer. He tells you that your great and splendid road is in ruins. Look at the papers on your table, and any one will easily be convinced that a quick decay has come upon this road before the plans of its advocates are half completed. Dif ferent methods have been recommended to keep it in repair. It has been recommended to build it with stone, and cover it with gravel; but all will not do. It is swept away by the torrent. And it is now proposed to cover it with iron. Gentlemen smile; but it is so. [Mr. RUGGLES said not iron but metal.] Well, sir, I will look at the report. It is there recommended that the road be grad. ed at an angle of five degrees, and covered with metal of a good quality. It is true, it is not explained what kind of metal this is to be. But, if I understand the English language, it may be gold or silver, as it is pretty clear it cannot allude to lead.

[Some one here remarked, that, by the word "metal," was meant "limestone."]

Mr. SMITH. This is the first time I ever heard that limestone was a metal. However, it may be so in the Western country. The new projects of the engineers were continually occupying the attention of Congress. These engineers are also taking a large proportion of the money of the United States (whether metal or not.) Upwards of sixty of these gentlemen are now in employ. ment. And any Senator who will look at the documents on his table, will be convinced that it is money thrown away. And we still go on, laying stone upon stone, and heaping metal upon metal, as I sincerely believe to no practical effect beyond the distribution of the public money to men who want it.

It is a little curious, said Mr. S., to observe the grounds upon which these repeated demands are supported. The friends of the road tell us, with very grave aspect, that I am not disposed to deprive the People of the West we have made the road so far, and now it would be un. of any of their rights, or interfere in their convenience. just not to make it a little farther. They argue as if our More especially would I avoid interfering in the peculiar having gone thus far entailed upon us the obligation of public benefit to which the gentleman from Ohio so galstill proceeding ad infinitum. Their reasoning seems to lantly alluded in the debate of yesterday. He said that be, that, having put our hands to the plough," we must, alliances were formed by means of the convenience afon no consideration, look back, but that the whole West- forded by the Cumberland Road, between the young peo ern country must be intersected by this road at the ex-ple of the different sections of the country; and that it pense of the whole country. It is true that two per cent. was the happy instrument in causing many happy mar was granted towards making a road of this description: riages. But, I would ask, if we are to pay so dear for these but I ask if there is any thing in the compact with these alliances? Poets have surg to us that bolts and bars can States which stipulates that the road shall be 80 feet wide, not confine true love-and yet, forsooth, our modern or that it shall cost 14,000 dollars per mile? lovers must have a smooth road paved with "metal of a good quality," to bring them together. This was a cold and phlegmatic kind of love, and he believed no lady would consent to give her vote for it.

The gentleman from Tennessee said, in the course of his remarks, that, in a body like the Senate, he should depend upon facts. That is just what I have always endeavored to do. Well, sir, it is said that the two per cent. I believe that the road has been as injurious as it has will pay for the completion of the road. I ask, will it be been expensive. But gentlemen also tell us that it is a possible that it can defray the expense to which the Go- war road. I hope not. I hope that, although we do not vernment has already gone? Will it pay 14,000 dollars show much love towards each other, we shall not go to per mile, and 636 dollars per mile as salary to the super- war. I have heard of no alarming enmity existing beintendent? I believe not. I believe that, at the time tween the East and the West. Yet you have been ex. the road was first projected, had it been proposed to pay pending the money of the Government on a war measure. 636 dollars per mile to the superintendent, it would have Sir, we suffered sufficiently during the last war; and yet prevented its construction. I know not what the super-you are no sooner comfortably settled in the enjoyment of intendent does, or what he has done, but I know that the pay appears to me enormous. Of all public objects, perhaps none are more efficient in promoting the expenditure of public money than such a work as this. And that seems to be its principal recommendation.

It is said, in the report of the superintendent, Mr. Caspar W. Wever, that it is a very bad policy to build roads

peace, than you prepare for war at a great expense. This is a principle which is continually cried up in this country, but I do not agree to it.

But, again it is said that the making of this road was guarantied by a compact between the United States and the Western States; and the gentleman from Tennessee has read us the act. Well, sir, admitting this is the law;

[SENATE.

if its operation is injurious or inexpedient, why is it a so- speak of poetical affairs, please to allow me to have my lemn compact more than any other law? and why may it own ideas. I believe poetry and novels to be the most not be repealed if it is an improper law? In relation to injurious things in the world. If the gentleman from Ohio, it seems that the compact is already fulfilled. The South Carolina wishes to increase that love which would road has not only gone through the State, but surveys induce us to give to each other whatever rights we are have been made as far as the State of Indiana. I recol- entitled to, he would see this measure in a very different lect, also, that, having authorized a survey, it was com light. If you will do away the designs of the sage of Monpleted, but not happening to hit the seat of Government ticello, then you will strike at the root of that love and of Indiana or Missouri, (I have forgotten which,) it was fellow feeling upon which the prosperity of this country abolished, and a new survey ordered. If there was a com- depends. It was under the auspices of that great man, pact by which Congress was obliged to make a road to the father of Virginia--although the gentleman from Virand through the State of Ohio, I do not mean to go far-ginia, who spoke yesterday, says that he had rather wade ther, so far as depends upon me. Nor do I believe that in the mud than make good roads to travel upon-that the continuance of this road into Missouri, Indiana, or 11- this great work was first set a-going. He was no violator linois, is incumbent on Congress, or is authorized by the of the Constitution, and understood its construction proConstitution. I said I would not touch on this Constitu- bably as well as men of the present day. tional question; nor need I to do so. There is yet ano- Now, sir, by a compact with these Western States, Conther point of defence, in which the friends of the bill flat-gress is bound to do this work. The Government cannot ter themselves they are well sustained. It is, that this avoid it; its pledge has been given, and it must be done. road is made under the power given by the Constitution Mr. Jefferson saw how those States were situated. He to regulate commerce. Some of the gentlemen seem to saw that there was no outlet towards the East to that go entirely upon this supposition. If this argument be country lying on the Western waters, and that, in case of admitted, where will the system stop? Will it not branch a war, the two sections of country would not be in a sitoff to the Northwest Territory, or go to Santa Fe ? In uation to help each other. If Mr. Jefferson had not set either case, it could be doubly defended by its friends, as on foot this plan, those rugged rocks which I clambered a war road and a commercial road. How fallacious, how- over when a youth, would have remained, and the face ever, is the policy, if we take it on the former ground, of of the country would still have been darkened by those opening a road of eighty feet in width into an enemy's endless forests through which I used to follow the Country: for, if it is a war road, I presume we are going paths of the Indians; for we never should have settled to fight Mexico. But, I ask, are they a warlike people? that country-we could not have done it-if it had not are we not in profound peace with them at the present been for this road. Now, sir, will any man pretend that tume To these questions I presume it will be answered, Congress shall not agree to the compacts which it has that we are not in hostility with Mexico, but that the road is made with those States? Does any man believe that such to be a commercial one. And so we see that, whether one a compact was unconstitutional? If he does, I will refer way or another, the friends of the road have always a ready him to the fourth article of the second section of the Condefence. We are to have a road eighty feet in width stitution, where it is laid down that new States may be from Cumberland to Santa Fe, built of stone and paved admitted into the Union, and that Congress may inake with metal; that part, I presume, nearest the Mexican rules to regulate their admission. Is there any thing frontier, with gold from the mines of Mexico. And then, clearer than that? While those States were yet terrisir, do you suppose these gentlemen are going to be satis- tories, the United States had the sovereign power over fied Not at all. New projects will start up, and new them but when they were admitted into the Union, soinventions be seized upon, to keep up the flow of money vereignty over their territory vested in them. And when from your Treasury into the pockets of engineers, con- you offered to make a road through those new States, tractors, &c. But, suppose that, at some future period, what would have been the effect if we had refused to acthe work should stop; then Congress must turn about cede to the conditions? But what did we do? We agreed and expend twenty millions to repair what they have al- to the compact, sir. We gave you a consideration for the ready done. benefit you were to bestow upon us. We got nothing; nor do we want any thing gratuitously. No time is fixed for the fulfilment of this compact; and, consequently, the present time is the only proper one.

On every consideration that has presented itself to me, I am opposed to this system of expense. Are the Representatives of the People willing to pay, in the time of peace, a subsidy for the purposes of war? A subsidy for the encouragement of commerce, or a subsidy for the establishment of post roads? I believe they are not. These sentiments I have offered to the Senate as the ground upon which I opposed the bill.

Mr. NOBLE said he would bear testimony to the humor with which the speech of the gentleman from South Carolina had been characterized; although, at the same time, he must differ from him in point of fact, and in many of the arguments upon which his witticisms had been founded. He did not know what kind of love it was with which the gentleman from South Carolina would look upon the people of the Western States. Love, he had always understood, regarded the happiness of its object; and he did not know how the gentleman could suppose that the people of the West could be happy, or even comSortable, without roads. But, if the gentleman had any desire to promote that love which teaches to do justice to fellow citizens, he thought his course upon this bill would have been a different one. I have read somewhere, said Mr. N., that all poets were fools, but that all fools were not poets; and I begin to believe it is true. If we

Will you, then, after making a compact, refuse to do what you promised to those States who have been struggling for years in the forest, extending your dominions, and guarding your frontiers against the depredations of the savages? Why did Congress originally make this agreement? I'll tell you why, sir. It was, that we might have all the communication with the commercial cities that our talent, our wealth, and our enterprise, entitled us to. Sir, you can't stop the progress of civilization. Do all you can, the Western world has got the start of you, and will defy illiberality to overtake it or stop its progress. You may make us wade in the mud, and swim our rivers and creeks, by refusing to aid us in making roads and canals; but it will not do. It is out of your power to keep down the enterprise of our citizens. I ask you to pass this bill, the principle of which was advocated by the Sage of Monticello, and defended in the councils of the country by Mr. Madison. I have also a resolution in my hand, offered by a gentleman who was late a member of this body, the honorable Mr. RANDOLPH, in the House of Representatives, on the 10th January, 1812, which I will read to the Senate.

SENATE.]

Mr. N. then read the following:

Cumberland Road.

"Resolved, That the President of the United States be authorized to employ the regular Army of the United States, when not engaged in actual service, and when, in his judgment, the public interest will not thereby be in jured, in the construction or repair of fortifications, roads, canals, or other works of public utility

[JAN. 23, 1828.

dually to progress with the surveys, and lay out the road, in compliance with the compact with Indiana, Illinois, and Missouri. How can there be any objection to complying with these terms? How can gentlemen reconcile a failure, on the part of the United States, to justice or to public faith? The compacts were entered into with those States while they were yet Territories: they were submitted to Whether the author of this resolution still adheres to the Territorial Conventions, and were agreed to. It was his former opinions or not, said Mr. N., I do not pretend no hasty piece of work; it was done deliberately, and reto say. And I would ask the Senate, if the statesmen of peated to each State, so as to show that the policy of the Virginia, of the present day, need be referred to as a measure was deemed worthy of being followed up from standard of faith on this subject. I could also allude to year to year. I ask, then, what objection can we offer to the great report of Henry St. George Tucker, but I need the fulfilment of these agreements? I ask more-if the go no farther. Every part of the country, at that time, faith of the United States is not pledged? I do not know seemed to think that the Western States had a right to | but the two per cent. on the lands sold has been expendthis road. We are told now, however, that it is an unjusted; but, at any rate, that fund is to be applied by Conand unconstitutional project; that a great deal of money gress. The bill first passed was to locate a road from has been spent; that the road is good for nothing; that Cumberland to Wheeling. The bill now before us it is out of repair, and all this. The gentleman from Vir- has nothing to do with that. It is grounded upon the act ginia has been particularly warm in his attack upon the of 1825, entitled "An act for continuing the Cumberland constitutionality of the work. But, when we come to Road from the town of Canton, on the Ohio, opposite the idea that Virginia is the only safekeeper of the Con- Wheeling, to the Muskingum, at Zanesville." In pursu stitution, let me tell the gentleman that the whole of the ance of the compact entered into on the admission into western part of the State of Virginia is in favor of it. I the Union of the States of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Misonly ask you to assist those who were struggling in the souri, the bill of 1825 was framed. The second section forests during the last war, without reads and without as- provides for the appointment of a commissioner, and the sistance. I ask you to fulfil the compact you have delibe- third for the appointment of an impartial person, who rately entered into, that you may keep your faith and shall, together, complete the examination and surveys to your consciences clear, and that the West may not have the Seat of Government of the State of Missouri. Subcause to complain of the injustice of the Government. sequently to that act, an act of the 28th March, 1826, apMr. RIDGELY said, that the argument, in his opinion, propriated one hundred and fifty thousand dollars towards had gone farther than the subject warranted. He thought, the work, and last year another act appropriating one that, when the Senate considered coolly the objects of hundred and thirty thousand was passed. The several this bill, they could find no reasonable ground upon which appropriations to this part of the work amounted to four to oppose it. He saw no reason why it had become a hundred and thirty thousand dollars. This might look constitutional question. In support of this, he referred like a large sum of money. We will admit that fact. But to the acts of admission of the Western States, and quoted it is to comply with a contract in which the Government that portion of the law by which the United States obli- have entered, and he doubted not, that, even were it not gated itself to give up a twentieth part of the proceeds of so, it would be more than paid for by its beneficial effects the public lands for the purpose of making roads, with upon the country at large. And, let me ask, said Mr. R., the consent of the States through which they were to if, by these roads through the unsettled parts of the counpass. Another act was passed, in the year 1803, which try, the United States does not greatly enhance the value provided that the Secretary of the Treasury should pay of its public domain? The very road itself has such an three per cent. of the proceeds of the sales of the public effect. The work has been progressing beyond the Ohio lands to such person as was appointed by the Legislature river for four years, and he neither considered it just or of each State, to be applied, under their direction, to mak-proper to break off from a work that had been progressed ing roads within the States: and that the remaining two per cent. should be applied, under the direction of Congress, to making roads to and through the said States. Thus we ascertain what has been done with the five per cent. originally granted. Afterwards, a bill passed, during the Administration of Mr. Jefferson, and which was approved by him, appropriating thirty thousand dollars for laying out a road from Cumberland, in Maryland, to some point on the Ohio river, in compliance with the compact. Another section of that law authorized the President to obtain the consent of the States of Pennsylvania and Maryland to the passing the road through their respective territories. This law provided that the sum appropriated should be paid out of the two per cent. fund; and, if that were not enough, out of other moneys in the Treasury, not otherwise appropriated. This was done : and thus, by repeated laws of the same nature, the road has been made to the State of Ohio. Then came the State of Indiana; and I will ask gentlemen to look at the law admitting her into the Union. It will be found that the same provision is made as in the case of Ohio. Five per cent. is granted for the purpose of making roads to and through the State; and the same compact, it will be found, has been acceded to by the other States subsequently admitted into the Union. What, then, is the object of the bill now before the Senate? It is not, solely, to complete the road through the State of Ohio, but gra

in thus far, and the obstructions to which had been most ly removed. The first section of the road, between the Ohio and Zanesville, might be considered as finished. On the second section it was but partially made; and he thought that, if the road was to be stopped at all, it should not be done until that portion of it upon which money had been expended, should be completed. He thought the gentleman from South Carolina [Mr. SMITH] had misquoted and misunderstood the letter of the Superinten dent of the road, Mr. Wever. [Mr. R. then read some passages of Mr. Wever's letter, in order to support the opinion which he had just expressed.] It was to be sup posed that Mr. Wever understood his subject; and he estimated the cost of the completion of the road to Zanesville, at one hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars. The bill appropriated the sum of one hundred and eighty thousand dollars, in order to enable the engineers to go on with the surveys beyond the Muskingum river. And now, sir, said Mr. R., after the United States, considering them. selves bound by the contract with the Western States, have done so much towards this great work, I will ask if they are to close their hands, and, to a certain extent, render useless all that they have already done? I hope not: I hope the work will progress. I own not a foot of ground in any of these States, and reside in a different quarter. I look upon the laws passed on the admission of those States into the Union, as comprising a pledge on

JAN. 24, 1828.]

ble manner.

Mr. HARRISON said, he had intended to reply to his friend from South Carolina, [Mr. SMITH,] but it had been so ably done by the Senator from Delaware, that he would not at that late hour trespass upon the Senate, further than to ask the yeas and nays on the question of engross-made roads and canals, because such power was not ing the bill.

vote:

The call being sustained, the question was taken, when the bill was ordered to be engrossed, by the following YEAS-Messrs. Barnard, Barton, Bateman, Benton, Bouligny, Chambers, Chase, Eaton, Harrison, Hendricks, Johnson of Kentucky, Johnston of Louisiana, Kane, Knight, McKinley, McLane, Marks, Noble, Ridgely, Robbins, Ruggles, Seymour, Silsbee, Smith of Maryland,

the part of the United States which, by withdrawing the consideration than the interest of the State he representwork, at present would be violated in a most unjustifia-ed, he might be in favor of relinquishing the compacts altogether; because, without the compacts, they would be entitled to the public lands; but the case presented was one in which he had no power to act. If the resolution had any object, it appeared to him that it was to dispense with the exercise of the power of Congress to found in the Constitution. But if the Constitution gave to Congress the right of making compacts with the several States, and of stipulating to expend two per cent. of the sales of public lands, in making roads and canals in the States, for the benefit of the new States, surely the constitutional power to make roads and canals cannot be denied. If such compacts could be made according to the provisions of the Constitution, how can it be argued that Congress has not the power to fulfil their conditions? As a member of one of the new States, he would not agree to any modification of these compacts; because he maintained that such modification could not be made without the consent of both of the contracting partiesthe States and the Union. What, said Mr. H., is the whole case? You have engaged to make, for the new States, roads and canals, on condition that they will neither tax nor sell the public lands within their limits. The Senator from North Carolina, and others, say, We have undertaken to do what we have no constitutional power to do, and the resolution proposes to release Congress from that obligation, without releasing the States from their prohibitions against sale and taxation. If you wish to be released from your obligations in reference to the compacts, release the States also. Do the compacts entirely away. You either have no constitutional power to make the compacts, or you have power to fulfil themhave power to make roads and canals.

Thomas-25.

NAYS-Messrs. Bell, Berrien, Branch, Chandler, Cobb, Dickerson, Ellis, Foot, Hayne, King, Macon, Parris, Sanford, Smith of South Carolina, Tyler, Van Buren, White, Woodbury-18.

Mr. MACON then rose, and offered the following resolution, remarking that it was his object to give up the road to the several States through which it had been constructed; and also to give up all the product of the two per cent. as well as the money that had been advanced, so as to get rid of the disputes which annually occupied Congress on this subject:

Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary inquire into the expediency of relinquishing to the States through which the Cumberland Road passes to the Ohio river, whatever claim, if any, the United States may have to the same; and that the said committee also inquire into the expediency of relinquishing to the States concerned, the claim of the United States to the whole of the five per cent. reserved from the sale of the public lands in the United States.

THURSDAY, JANUARY 24, 1828.

Mr. FOOT remarked that, if any thing could have convinced him of the propriety of agreeing to the resolution, it was what the gentleman from Indiana had just said. He was more and more convinced of the necessity of an inquiry into the whole subject, more particularly into the amount of the five per centum and the two per The resolution submitted yesterday by Mr. MACON, centum, devoted to this object. It was a matter of inauthorizing an inquiry into the expediency of relinquish-vestigation and inquiry only, for the Committee, and the ing the Cumberland Road to the States through which it importance of the subject entitled it to that notice. passes, was taken up. Mr. MACON said a few words, which the Reporter could not distinely hear.

Mr. CHANDLER suggested to the gentleman from North Carolina, whether it would not be better to amend Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, said, he thought he the resolution, so as to provide for the giving up of the could name a case in which the gentleman from Indiana contract on the part of the States, should Congress re-gave his vote for a similar measure. He alluded to the linguish the Road?

Mr. MACON said, that his object, in offering the resolution, was to cover the whole ground, and allow the Committee to decide upon the details. His design was to get rid of the whole subject, and the debates that so frequently occurred upon it. The inquiry of the Commmittee would be directed to the manner in which this would be done.

bill allowing the State of Ohio to sell the sixteenth sections of land reserved for the benefit of schools. The same authority had also been given to the State of Alabama Now here was an infraction of a compact; but he had heard of no complaint in regard to it. If Congress could break a contract in one instance, was it bound to adhere to it in another? He believed that no part of our compact with the new States ought to be more religiousMr. HENDRICKS said, that he rose merely to remark ly observed, than that by which we granted the sixthat the Western States would hardly be averse to doing teenth sections of land to the use and benefit of schools. way, unconditionally, the compacts, because their inter. Yet Congress had passed a law giving the right to the est would be greatly promoted by it. Without saying a States of selling them. On the compact now under conword on the subject of the five per cent. or the two per sideration, he thought that gentlemen had packed a great cent. of which so much had been said, the compacts deal more than it could bear. Was it not far more im. which this resolution proposed to modify, were the only portant, in the new States, to provide for education, impediment in the way of the right of soil, and of taxa-than to make roads? Every body knew the necessity of tion by the States, in reference to the public lands within roads; but education was of far greater importance. And their limits. There was an inquiry, however, suggested so much so was it considered by the Government that to his mind, which he would offer to the mover of the re- the provision of land for that object had the effect, in a solution, and which might save the Judiciary Committee manner, to coerce them into a sufficient encouragement the trouble of its investigation. It was this: If the com- of schools. This provision had, however, been deserted pacts made by Congress with the States are valid at all, in some of the States where the lands had been sold, and Can they be changed by Congress without the consent of the proceeds converted into bank stock. These were the States? As a single member, regarding no other instances where the compacts of Congress with the States