FxB. 22, 25, 1828.]

The late General Brown.

[SENATE.

aded or obliterated, we are gone. There is no less, and no longer able to supply it. But, after having comng left worth contending for---consolidation en- mitted these-beloved objects of his affection to that AlRes, and a splendid Empire will but point to a mighty Power which had hitherto protected them, his riched and enslaved People. But, while the People thoughts incessantly turned to his country-to that councontinue to make and understand their laws, to use none try which he had so faithfully and successfully served, for that they do not make, and hold to strict responsibility which he had bled, and for which, as he believed, he had se who administer them, they are safe, and will be given his life. He spoke with raptures of her happiness, happy. Sir, I can have no objection to a reconsideration of her exalted rank among the nations of the earth, and of this question. I do not want the bill to pass, unless it her glorious destinies; and almost his last sigh was breathhas the approbation of a majority of this body. The Se-ed for her continued prosperity. Such, sir, said Mr. H. rator from New York, i Mr. VAN BUREN] and the Senator was the man, in life and in death, for whose memory I ask from Delaware, [Mr. MCLANE] have each acted towards the tribute of respect contained in the resolutions which me, in the progress of this bill, with a generosity and I now submit : magnanimity which commands my respect and demands my acquiescence in the motion for a reconsideration. These gentlemen, I am sorry to say, are both opposed to the bill, but for reasons infinitely more plausible than those urged by the Senator from Massachusetts. shall therefore assent to the reconsideration of the question, and to any modification of the bill which may be more greeable to the Senate, and does not confer on the Judges the right to make rules-to that, I never will consent. Mr. TAZEWELL followed, in opposition to the reconderation: To whom Mr. ROWAN briefly answered. Mr. WEBSTER replied briefly to some of the remarks of Mr. ROWAN.

The motion to reconsider was then agreed to.

FRIDAY, FEBRUARX 22, 1828.

(No business was transacted this day to give rise to debate.]

MONDAY, FEBRUARY 25, 1828.

THE LATE GENERAL BROWN. Mr. HARRISON, Chairman of the Committee on Military Affairs of the Senate, rose and said: I rise, Mr. President, to perform a most painful duty-that of announcthe death of Major General JACOB BROWN, the distinished commanding General of our army. He died yes terday, in this city, at half past twelve o'clock. I am aware, Mr. President, that, in the performance of a duty of this kind, something like an eulogium upon the character and actions of the hero, whose loss we deplore, might be expected. At all times unequal to such a task, I am particularly unfitted for it at this moment. Besides, what could I say of General Brown, that is not already known? His best eulogium would be found in a recital of his bril. bant achievements, and with these every Senator present is familiar. We all recollect, sir, with what thrilling anxiety our attention was turned towards the Niagara frontier, in the late war, when it was announced that an ficer of acknowledged bravery indeed, but without miEtary education, and with limited military experience, ad been placed at the head of our Army. We must also ellect with what joy and gratitude to Heaven, we heard f his first brilliant exploit, rapidly followed by a second, and with what perfect confidence we then relied, that the inal result would be such as it was-eminently glorious to himself, his army, and his country. Sir, said Mr. H. I it turn from this scene to one of a different character, ut not less interesting, and eminently calculated to shew the ruling passion of his soul, at a moment when there an be no deception, no affectation of that which is not real. It was the good fortune of General Brown to be surinded on his death bed by a large family. A wife, who sentitled to all his tenderness; and children, who just #herited his affection. In such a scene, on such an occon, it may well be supposed that his mind would be feel with intense anxiety upon the future fate of ob. He jesso justly dear to him; and such was the fact. knew that the head which had directed them, would be on cold; the hand from which alone they received their daily support, would, in a few short hours, be life

VOL. IV.-24

4

"Resolved, That the Senate have learned, with deep regret, the death of Major General Jacob Brown, the late Commanding General of the Army, and the distinguished leader in the glorious battles of Chippewa, Niagara, and Erie, in the late war.

66

"Resolved, That, as a mark of respect to the deceased General, the members of the Senate will wear the accustomed badge of mourning on the left arm for one month. Resolved, That, if the House of Representatives concur, the Senate will, in conjunction with the House of Representatives, attend the funeral of Major General Brown, on Wednesday next, at twelve o'clock."

Mr. SMITH, of Maryland, opposed the first part of the resolution. He thought it would establish a bad prece dent, to go into mourning for any individual other than a

member.

Mr. HARRISON expressed his regret, that his friend from Maryland should oppose the resolution offered by him. That gentleman was so distinguished for his liberality of sentiment, and his high sense of the services of meritorious public officers, he hoped the gentleman would not persist in his objections.

Mr. SMITH, of Md. observed, that no man was more sensible than himself, of the eminent services performed by General Brown. But it was a new thing for the Senate to go into mourning on such an occasion. Other general officers had died without any such expression of respect; and he did not think it was proper to commence such a practice at this time. He could not oppose the resolutions; and he had no disposition to do so; but he thought they would be better without the second clause. It was all the Senate could consistently do, to say that General Brown deserves the thanks of his country; and that the Senate lament his decease; and that they will attend his funeral on Wednesday.

He

Mr. CHANDLER expressed his high opinion of the great merit and services of General Brown. He thought, however, that, when a military man died, it was an appropriate ceremony to bury him with the honors of war. thought with the gentleman from Maryland, that it was a new thing for the Senate to go into mourning on the oc He believed such a method of expressing regret casion. for the death of a military man, was not countenanced by He should, therethe legislative bodies of any country. fore, be forced to oppose that part of the resolution. Mr. NOBLE said, that if he voted against the resolu tion, he wished the reason to be understood. He was averse to the precedent which would be established by resolving to wear mourning for a military man. The case of General Washington was no parallel with the present. He was the saviour of his country-he had been at the head of its Executive-and lived in peace, as in war, the At his death the first, most virtuous man of the age. whole country was plunged in mouring; and it was con sistent that the Legislative bodies should wear the badge. He was averse to voting against this resolution, because he regretted the death of Gen. Brown, and sympathized with the feelings of his family. He wished that the portion of the resolution, which declares that the Senate will go into mourning, might be withdrawn; as he thought a

SENATE.]

Judicial Process-Office of Major General.

[FED. 27, 28, 29, 1828.

could not vote for it, however anxious he might be for the adoption of some measure which would give to the new States the process promised by this bill. But he could not support it while it proposed an innovation upon the Judicature of the old States, with which, in reality, is ought to have nothing to do. He hoped, therefore, that this matter, made complex by the various motions in relation to it, would be again submitted to the investiga tion of the Judiciary Committee.

homage of this kind to a military man, would assimilate us too much to a despotic Government. In every other case, the members of each separate profession bestowed these honors on their deceased companions. The members of the bar wore mourning for one of their fraternity; and Legislative bodies did the same. The Army, he believed, went on the same principle; and there it ought to stop. He did not wish to encourage any practice which should take the shape of idolatry, for services, however great. He was sorry that he felt constrained to make Mr. HAYNE inquired whether the motion to recommit these remarks. He honored General Brown in every sta- was in order. The bill had been ordered to a third readtion; he lamented his death; and in every consistent man-ing, and until it had been read a third time, he thought ner he was ready to testify his respect for his character, it was not in order to move its recommitment. and his memory. Nothing was farther from him, than to The CHAIR said, that in strict parliamentary rule, the treat with disrespect the feelings of the family of the de- motion was not in order; but it had been always the prac ceased, with whom he sincerely sympathized. tice to accede to a motion to recommit, when not opposed by a Senator.

Mr. BELL moved to strike out so much of the resolutions, as related to the Senate wearing mourning. Mr. HARRISON acceded to such a modification, and the resolutions having been so amended, were agreed to. A joint resolution of the other House, for the appointment of a committee of three from each House, to make arrangemenss for the funeral of the late General Brown, was received and concurred in.

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 1828.

Mr. JOHNSTON, of Louisiana, said that he was averse to the bill in its present form, because it would doubtless be lost, if persisted in. The bill was framed for the new States, and for them only. If the old States were left as they were, they would be satisfied, and he knew no rea son why they should be interfered with. If they were so interfered with, the members from the old States would vote against the bill, and it would probably fail.

The CHAIR said, that, if the gentleman from S. Carolina objected to the motion, it would be considered out of

Both Houses of Congress this day attended the fune: order. In that case, the gentleman from Massachusetts ral of General Brown.

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 1828.

could move the reconsideration of the vote, by which the bill was ordered to be engrossed.

Mr. HAYNE said he made no objection to the motion, and had spoken merely on the supposition that it was contrary to the rules.

Mr. ROWAN observed, that he should object to the
He had no fear that the bill would be endan

motion.

Mr. CHANDLER submitted the following resolution: Resolved, That the office of Major General of the Army of the United States is unnecessary, and, therefore, ought to be abolished; and that the Committee on Military Afgered by opposing it, as the Senate had twice decided in fairs be, and they are hereby, instructed to bring in a bill favor of the bill in its present form, and it had once been for the purpose of abolishing said office accordingly. objected, at an early stage, that the old States were not included.

JUDICIAL PROCESS.

On motion of Mr. JOHNSTON, of Louisiana, the Senate proceeded to the consideration of the bill to establish Judicial process in the States admitted into the Union since the year 1789.

Mr. KANE offered several amendments.

Mr. ROWAN inquired whether they were in order? The CHAIR stated that they were not in order; but that the gentleman might attain his object by a motion to

recommit the bill.

Mr. JOHNSTON, of La. made a few remarks, and the CHAIR remarked, that it would not be in order to move any amendment which would strike out any part of the bill adopted at a former period, but that any proviso might be added to it.

Mr. KANE then moved an addition to the bill, giving the power to the District and Circuit Courts to alter and modify the rules of the State Courts, and to the Supreme Court to frame new rules from time to time, &c.

Mr. ROWAN moved to amend the amendment of the gentleman from Illinois, so as to restrict this power to matters of form only:" Which was agreed to-19 to 12. The amendment, as amended, was then adopted, and the bill passed to be engrossed for a third reading.

A few moments after the last vote was taken, Mr. WEBSTER rose and said, that, when the amendment offered by the gentleman from Kentucky was adopted, he was absent; but as he understood that the bill in its present shape would operate upon all the States, he should move to recommit it to the Committee on the Judiciary. He thought its provisions ought to be so framed as to suit the purposes of all; and as the decision upon such questions belonged peculiarly to that committee, this bill ought to be once more referred to it. The bill had gone through various forms, and, in that in which it now appeared, he

Mr. BERRIEN considered it an error, that all the old States were satisfied with the present judicial process, It was also a misapprehension to suppose that this bill would be otherwise than inconvenient, or that it would remedy the evils now complained of. To confine the exercise by the Courts of the United States, of the revising power, to “matters of form only," would, in a great de gree prevent the Federal jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. The power to prescribe rules for their own courts had been hitherto given to the Federal Judges, under certain limitations; and it could not be confined to forms alone, without doing serious injury.

Mr. KANE said, that he should vote for the recommit. ment, as the amendment offered by the gentleman from Kentucky seemed to him inexpedient and improper.

The question was then taken on recommitting the bill and was decided in the affirmative, 23 to 16.

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 29, 1828.

Agreeably to notice, Mr HARRISON had leave to in troduce a bill for the relief of Mrs. Brown, widow of the late Maj. Gen. Brown; which was read twice, by unanimous consent, and referred to the Committee on Military Affairs.

OFFICE OF MAJOR GENERAL.

The resolution submitted yesterday by Mr. CHAND LER, to abolish the office of Major General in the Army of the United States, was considered

Mr. CHANDLER said that he fully believed the office of Major General was not necessary in the present state of our Army. This was no new opinion, but had long been entertained by him. brought into the other House to fix the Military Peace In the year 1821, a bill was Establishment; and a vote of the House was taken on the

question of retaining one Brigadier General, and decided in favor of it by a large majority. But the friends of General Brown moved an amendment to the bill, and had sufficient influence to succeed, and thereby ensure his retention in the service. Mr. C. said he was not easily indaced to second the views of the friends of General Brown; but he did eventually vote for the amendment providing for one Major General and two Brigadier Generals. He had after regretted the vote he then gave, and had determined, on the first occasion that might offer, by the vacancy of the office, to move to abolish the office of Major General, convinced, as he was, that a feeling of gratitude to General Brown, and not the sober judgment of Congress, had retained him in the office. One Brigadier General was, he thought, sufficient for the present condition and wants of our Army. There would be two Brigadier Generals left after the abolition of the office of Major General, and they would be able to do all the duties which could be required or needed from a Major General in a time of profound peace. The measure would also be a saving to the country of a considerable annual sum.

[SENATE.

roughly sustained, by historical facts and experience. It was necessary that every army should have a Commanding General. By no other plan of command could unity of design and action be ensured: for in military affairs especially, was the direction of one head required. There had been memorable instances of defeat from an opposite state of things, which must be familiar to the minds of all who have become conversant with military history. A case in point was the failure of the French army in the Peninsula, which is attributed by a judicious historian to the want of a commander-in-chief. The French forces were commanded by several distinguished officers, of equal rank, whose operations wanted consistency, and were, therefore, rendered ineffectual. On the other hand, Lord Wellington, having the supreme command, gave to his movements that unity of purpose, and direction of all his forces to the attainment of the objects to which his operations were turned, that gave him a decided advantage. The same error caused much evil in our first campaign on the frontier of Canada, during the last war. It would ever be so; and, to prevent similar embarrassments, Mr. HARRISON observed that, until this morning, he the present system had been considered effectual. The had not been aware of the tenor of the resolution offered fact of the existence of peace did not alter the principle. yesterday by the gentleman from Maine. He had sup- The Army was organized with a view to a state of war. posed that it was in the general form of resolutions for an It was, in its present state, a skeleton, representing the inquiry. On the contrary, he found it to be an imperative outlines of its form in a period of hostility, which were to direction for the abolition of the office of Major General. be filled up when a period of actual service should arrive. The ordinary course was, to refer all such matters to a The grand principles of its formation were drawn from committee, which would investigate the practicability and the position in which it would he necessary to place it in expediency of carrying into effect the measures proposed, time of war. It could hardly be proper to calculate upon and make a detailed report to the Senate of all the circum- the continuation of the present state of things. He was stances relating to the subject, and probable effects of its not sure that the world, as it now existed, promised peradoption. In its present aspect, the resolution met with petual peace. While there existed a possibility that a his decided disapprobation. It was well known that, be- state of war might exist, it was prudent to retain so much sides the Major General, for whose death so much regret of an organized army as would ensure that our prepara. was now felt, there were three Major Generals by Brevet. tions to meet it, should it arrive, may not be disconcerted. If the object of the resolution went no farther than to re- The present system compassed this design, and went no fuse to fill the vacancy made by the death of General farther, and he, therefore, considered that it ought not to Brown, it would, in fact, not make the change anticipated be altered. He was desirous that the resolution might by the gentleman from Maine. Each officer would take be made in the form of an enquiry, when facts and arguhis rank, pay, and emoluments, as pointed out by the pre-ments could be produced to the Senate, which would ma sent regulations. If economy was, therefore, the object, the resolution would not compass the purpose for which it was offered.

Mr. CHANDLER said that his object was to abolish the office altogether. He would, however, go farther, and endeavor, by some additional provisions, to avoid the effects predicted by the Senator from Ohio.

Mr. HARRISON said that the whole object ought to be embraced in one bill, as it could be more conveniently considered when taken up entire, than when the details were separated. He wished to look at the whole of the projected change at once. To speak, however, of that which had been proposed by the present resolution, it was a well known, as it was a universal practice, where vacancies occurred, to fill them with the officer next in rank. This would be the case in the present instance. The oldest Brigadier General would take the situation vacated by General Brown. Another Brigadier General Would succeed to the oldest. The senior Colonel would be promoted to the rank of Brigadier, and so on, through all the surbordinate ranks of the army. There would be no economy in the adoption of the resolution. If it passed into a law, we should have officers in precisely the same places, doing the same duty, and drawing the same pay. Although a nominal change would be effected, it would not be a real one, so far as the object of the gentleFan from Maine extended. There were other objections to the measure, which he had now, scarcely time to deConstrate to the Senate. The present establishment was supposed to be a permanent one. Its effects upon the condition of the army had been highly salutary, and he believed that it was popular. The system was most tho

terially assist in coming to a right and proper decision.

Mr. SMITH, of Maryland, said he understood the ob. ject of the resolution to be to abolish whatever related to the office of Major General. He dissented from the Senator from Ohio, as to the operation of the measure. Every officer, in case it should go into effect, would remain in the present rank, until promoted by the due course, which was the nomination of the President of the United States, and the consent of the Senate. Without this process, the vacancy made by the death of General Brown would remain without an incumbent. Nor did the death of this officer make a regular routine of promotions a matter of course. The President might nominate some citizen to fill the office, as in the case of General Brown, and of General Jackson, who were taken from the People. The President was not bound to promote the Brigadier Generals. He did not think the rank of Major General necessary, and he knew well the reason for retaining in the service the Briadier Generals after the war. They had done great service during the war, and the country felt too much gratitude for those services to allow them to be turned off. It was not that they were needed to command our little Army of 6000 men. There seemed to him no difficulty in the question. The office was not required by the existing state of things; and he should, therefore, vote for the resolution of the gentleman from Maine.

Mr. CHANDLER said, that his object was to test the opinion of the Senate as to the abolition of the office of Major General. It was not necessary for this purpose to send the resolution to a Committee. He did not agree with the gentleman from Ohio as to the effect of the

SENATE.]

Office of Major General.

[FEB. 29, 1828

Mr. HARRISON said, that, in answer to his remarks, the gentleman from Maine had stated that his objects were solely the abolition of the office of Major General, and to save the amount of that officer's pay. But Mr. H. felt well assured that the measure would not save a dollar. His friend from Maryland had mistaken his remarks as to the manner of promotion. He did not say, that, if an officer was killed, the next in command succeeded to his rank. He had intended to say that he did succeed to his command as completely as if he had his commission in his pocket. He could not suppose that a good reason could be adduced against referring the resolution to the Military Committee. They would report the facts, and give a statement of the probable effect of the resolution. He had no other anxiety on the subject, but as far as its decision would operate upon the discipline of the Army and the expectations of the People. There could be no objection to the reference; because any gentleman could have an opportunity of expressing himself when the report of the Committee came up. He would assure the Senate that there was enough to be said, and to be developed on this subject, which could not be done in a casual debate, to render it a fit subject for a reference. Ile, therefore, hoped the gentleman from Maine would accede to the motion of the gentleman from Georgia.

measure. He saw no inconvenience that could arise from it. The practice had been changed by the act of 1821, so that the orders of the Department, instead of go ing through the hands of the Adjutant General, passed first through the hands of General Brown. No inconve. nience could arise from striking off the office, and he was not convinced that the reasoning of the gentleman from Ohio, as to the economy of the measure, was correct. Mr. HAYNE observed, that it was the usage to appoint a committee, consisting of men most conversant with mil itary affairs, to whom all questions on the subject were referred, as it seemed, as a matter of course. The gen tleman from Maine and Ohio, who now differed so widely on the subject, were members, and it was certainly expedient to refer the resolution to their investigation. The proposition of the gentleman from Maine, was, he apprepended, a departure from the rules of the Senate; and, he thought, would produce much embarrassment, if persisted in. There were many considerations which would most appropriately occupy the attention of the committee, and which ought to be examined before the Senate passed upon the resolution. They must enquire what the effect of the abolition of the office of Major General would be upon the Brevet Generals, and upon the Army, and its discipline. Upon these, and many other questions which naturally presented themselves, and which could not be Mr. CHANDLER said, that there appeared to the settled in a partial or hurried investigation, he wished gentlemen of the Senate a great difficulty in deciding the committee might deliberate and report. He found whether the office of Major General was necessary or an additional reason for wishing the reference from the not. For his own part he did not think an investigation diversity of opinion that had been shown by the two gen-by a Committee necessary; and was opposed to it, not tlemen of the Military Committee. They are totally at only because the question could be as well settled in the variance in their opinions of the operation of the measure, Senate, but for the reason that the session had far adand others, who are not so well versed in military affairs, vanced, and many other important subjects were yet to may well, under such circumstances, ask for information. be acted upon, which might interfere with this resolution, Let us, therefore, send the resolution to the Military if it should be referred. Committee, that these gentlemen may meet each other, Mr. SMITH, of S. C. hoped the amendment would not investigate the whole subject, compare their views, and prevail, because the discussion of the question could as report whether it is expedient to abolish Brevet rank alto-well take place now as hereafter. The subject had, in gether, or whether the country will be served by abolishing the office of Major General. When this is done, the Senate will be prepared to act understandingly on the subject. With these views, he was in favor of referring the resolution to the Military Committee.

Mr. MACON said he thought the gentleman from South Carolina was mistaken. He believed the rule was to settle the principle of any question first in the Senate, and then to send it to a committee to settle the details. He alluded to some instances of this in former legislation. As to the project itself, it met with his approbation. He believed, if a nation went to war, it was bad to have too many high officers. They were not generally the men who did the most for the glory of the Army. By whom, said Mr. M. were your great exploits performed during the last war?-1 don't mean to say any thing against the old men-they were performed by men in the vigor of life, and full of ambition. And if you have another war, it will be so again. There was always about an equal share of military talent in every Army. Times of peace did not call out that kind of talent. When war came, the kind of character you want will come out, nor was it necessary to be seeking it out when it was not wanted. In time of need, military genius will always show itself without its being necessary to search after it. He was in favor of abolishing the office of Major General, and thought it not necessary that it should be submitted to a committee. Mr. HAYNE rose to move an amendment of the resolation; but

Mr. BERRIEN said, that, with the permission of his friend from South Carolina, he would offer an amendment which he had committed to writing, and which would embrace the views of that gentleman. He then moved a substitute to the resolution, making its object matter of the inquiry of the Military Committee, to report upon it by bill, or otherwise.

former times, been thoroughly debated. After the war, the subject of a peace establishment engaged the atten tion of Congress. The number of men to be retained was fixed by different persons variously, from 10 to 20,000; the former number was fixed upon. Afterwards, in 1821, the matter was again discussed, a further reduction proposed, and the Army was brought down to 6,000, and certain officers were to go off the list. It was then argued that the officers could not be dispensed with; that their numbers could not be reduced without destroying the Army, by lessening the discipline which they as sisted to keep up. Next year, however, Mr. Monroe, in his message, stated that the affairs of the Army went on well, and that its present organization was as it should be. It was well known that the office of Major General would not have been retained but for the merit of the incum bent. He had fought several battles; displayed great skill and courage; and was unwilling to leave the svice. To retain him, therefore, and as a reward for his services, he was made Major General. General Jackson, who was willing to retire, was appointed Governor of Florida. That the office was useless, he never had a doubt. In the days of Jefferson there was but one Brigadier General retained upon the peace establishment. Nor was there any greater necessity for a Major General now than then. The Army was at present billeted about in parties of twenty men in a place-the whole consisting of but 6,000-yet, with all the discipline, and out of this small number, by the documents, it appeared that from 1,500 to 2,000 deserted every year. He recollected that, at the time of the appointment of General Brown as Major General, it was argued that it was necessary to have the commanding officers at the Seat of Government, that they might despatch the orders from the Department, and be directly in contact with the Go

EB. 29, 1828.]

ernment.

Office of Major General.

But he knew not one advantage that had sen out of it. Your Army, said Mr. S., is overstocked, nd there are now, in this mere shadow of an Army, offiers enough for one of 50,000 men. All the facts were before the Senate. Every member was more or less qanted with them. He, therefore, thought it better et the gentlemen of the Committee express their views e. Or, if they are taken off their guard by any sud. en argument, let them ask for delay: He would favor uch a request. He wished to hear the views of gentle. nen conversant with the subject, and hoped they would -xpress them before the Senate.

Mr. BENTON was of opinion that the decision of the Senate, on this resolution, would not be assisted by the inestigation of a committee. He believed its discussion in he Senate would be equally productive of a satisfactory est. Not thinking, however, that the subject could be lecided in a moment, he thought the resolution of the gentleman from Maine had better be laid over until anoher day. With this view, he moved to lay it on the tale until Monday; but observed that he would withdraw Se motion, if any gentleman desired to express himself. Mr. HARRISON said he hoped that a decision might st be taken on the motion of the gentleman from Geor. 5. If that failed, he would accede to the motion of the gentleman from Missouri with pleasure.

[SENATE.

members to form a decision upon the subject. This matter peculiarly required to be investigated by a Committee, and he hoped it would be referred.

Mr. NOBLE said, that we had had two peace establishments, and in each there had been a Major General. How the Senate were, by the gift of prophecy, going to suppose the effect of abolishing the office, he did not know. It would be the duty of the committee to go back and make inquiry into the causes for the creation of that office, and report the result of their inquiries. He was in favor of the motion of the gentleman from Georgia. He wished to have the facts. It could not be that the gentleman from Maine was afraid to trust to a committee of the Senate; and if not, his object would be more easily obtained by the reference. He did not wish to vote in the dark. It was a very important subject, and ought to he acted upon with caution. He had formerly been opposed to a standing army; but it was difficult to say whether, at this time, it could be safely increased or diminished. The subject ought, therefore, to go to the Committee on Military Affairs.

Mr. TAZEWELL remarked, that he did not understand the reason for wishing for a precipitate decision The gentleman from Maine did not oppose the motion of the gentleman from Missouri to lay the resolution on the table until all the members should have become informed Mr. BERRIEN observed that, in making his motion, upon the subject. But it is said that it is proper to refer The bad been actuated by a wish to obtain information on the subject to a committee. This is a statement to which a subject with which he was not familiar. He had heard a doubt may be started. In different bodies the modes of nothing in this debate to alter the opinion he had pre-proceeding are different. Had this resolution been inviously entertained, or to enlighten him on the subject.troduced in such a body as the House of Representatives, If the resolution was referred to the Military Committee, it would have been committed-to what ?—To the Comgenticmen conversant with the matter would be able, at mittee of the Whole, because, as it affects the whole future day, to give information upon which it would be country, every member ought to have an opportunity to afe to decide. With a desire to confine the Military Eshear the arguments pro and con, and to offer his opinion ablishment within the narrowest limits, he wished to upon it. But in this body, said Mr. T, it is the same any measure which should operate injuriously up- thing to submit a subject to the whole Senate as in the the usefulness or efficiency of the Army. He would House to refer to the Committee of the Whole. This was abit to the gentleman from Maine, whether it would the reason why he thought the resolution should be laid be better to allow the resolution to go to the commit- on the table until every member was satisfied with the *, to afford that light upon the subject, to enable the opinion he should have formed upon it. There were sub enate to come to a deliberate decision, and enable the jects of great importance, which ought not to be referred enators to examine their votes on the subject, with sato a Committee of the Whole, because they depend upon sfaction, at an after day. He should suppose that these facts not accessible to all the members, and which could nsiderations would operate to demonstrate the proprie- be more easily obtained by a standing committee, or of 1st a reference. He was not a military man, but was which the members might be in possession. But was alled upon to perform his duty, which he wished to do this such a subject? The questions he would ask were: Berstandingly. Does this subject interest the whole country?—and is it MUAYNE expressed a hope that the gentleman necessary that it should go to a committee to obtain the hon Missouri would not press his motion. Should the facts? Now, Sir, said Mr. T., I think we can get as much cadment fail, he would then be disposed to lay the information in the Senate as from the Committee on Miliselction on the table. If the Senate was favorable to tary Affairs. Besides, the opinion you get from the comaniquity by the Committee on Military Affairs, it oughtmittee is but the opinion of a majority of its members. tove made immediately and, if not, a delay ought to You do not hear the opinions of the minority, while, if it be had, and the subject acted on liberally. Some discus was discussed in the Senate, you get the opinions of all. sion has arisen on the effect of the measure. But, if the Therefore, this being a subject which interests the whole office should be abolished, would that settle the differ- Union, and which, in the other House, would be referred ence between the two gentlemen of the Committee, to a Committee of the Whole, and as the subject under e opinions are at utter variance? One says that it consideration can as well be understood without a referremove the expense of the pay of the Major Gene-ence to a select committee as with, he was in favor of layand the other says that it will not save a dollar, but ing it on the table. at a motion will take place through all the grades of e Army. Let us have these questions examined, and s have some ground to act upon. If it can be demonated that the army may be reduced from a division to gade, I am willing to do it. But I want, in the first , to have light upon the subject, and know how and As to the remark of the gentleman from Parolina, Mr. Macox] that principles were first seed in the Senate, and the details afterwards in the Coitces, there is a wide difference between cases, et the principle is to be settled before the details, those in which facts are to be explained, to enable

to act.

Mr. BERRIEN said, that, when the report should be brought up, there would be ample opportunity for discussion, so that the minority of the committee would have an opportunity of opposing the report. Those who were unacquainted with the subject, would be better able to understand it by the assistance of the report. He was not di posed now to discuss the matter. But, in asking for information from the Committee on Military Affairs, he simply desired to avoid any error which he might fall into, if, uninformed, he should be called upon to give his vote. If the Senate should be averse to the reference, he wished to record his vote in favor of obtaining that informa