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Classical Reference Wanted.—Who was it (some Roman, I think) who was held out of the window by his foot and threatened with precipitation unless he would renounce something he had said? J. M.

John Thukbane.—He was M.P. for Sandwich several times, and one of those who supported the canopy over William and Mary at their coronation (1689). Probably a son of James Thurbane, town clerk of Sandwich. Arms, Sable, a griffin passant argent. In Boys's 'Hist, of Sandwich ' the family is said to be eminent in the Cinque Ports, specially Hastings and Romney. John Thurbane was admitted a Serjeant-at-Law in 1889. Any particulars about him or his family would be acceptable.

Arthur Hu.ssey.

Benjamin Robert Haydon, Historical Paixtkk.—I am desirous of gleaning information as to the whereabouts of the numerous pictures which were executed by this talented, but ill-fated painter between the years 1806 and 1846, when his tragic death took place. He is, perhaps, best known for the size of his pictures, although many of them were meritorious, but he attained considerable notoriety by his continuous tilts at the Royal Academy. I may add that I have received valuable information from the Directors of the National Gallery and National Portrait Gallery respectively, but I am anxious to locate the remainder of Haydon's pictures, whether in public galleries or in private collections. The fact of his being a native of Plymouth must be my excuse for trying to secure the information I need through your columns, but I shall be glad to receive particulars privately if any of your contributors will kindly oblige me. W. H. K. Wright, Borough Librarian.


[His 'Curtius,' riding into the gap, is in Gatti's Ki-ataurant, Villiers Street, Strand.]

Authors Of Quotations Wanted.—

Does this become a soldier? this become

Whom armies followed, and a people lov'd?

A citizen of Rome, while Rome survived.

Whatever sweets Saba'an springs disclose,

Our Indian jasmin, and the Persian rose.

How often must it weep, how often burn!

So odd, iny country's ruin made me grave.

H. T. B. On one of our great breakwaters is inscribed:—

These lie imperial works, worthy of kings. Can any one kindly identify it, and give exact wording and authorship? G. E. D.

High Heaven itself our impious rage assails. W. H. ClIESSON.


(9th S. iv. 412, 483.)

Permit me to thank you for giving me so much of your valuable space in order to draw attention to the invaluable MS. Nos. 28,033 and 28,034 now deposited in the British Museum. 1 have spent a considerable time in carefully studying it, and I am compelled to modify, and indeed correct, some of the views I had formed upon it. 1 had based my conclusions mainly upon two premises: that this MS. was, as Mr. G. Evans most positively assured me, in the autograph of Robert Vaughan, of Hengwrt, and, secondly, that MS. 2299 formed a portion of MS. 359 of the Hengwrt collection.

I found the clearest evidence in the volume itself that Mr. Evans was in error in stating that it is in the autograph of Robert Vaughan, for that gentleman has annotated it in several parts, always signing his name or initials, and in one place (fo. 239) an addition of some importance is signed in full "Robert Vychan de Hengwrt." The addition of his place is made, I think, by Peter Ellis, the alleged author of the work—that is, assuming that the writing on the fly-leaf, of that gentleman's name and residence, is in his handwriting; so that I get over the difficulty of obtaining proof of Robert Vaughan's handwriting, which I failed to get at Peniarth, for here it is.

On comparing more closely Harl. 2299 with this book, I found that the late Mr. Wynne was in error in supposing that it was part of his MS. 359, which, I take it, is a copy of his great work 96 of the Hengwrt collection. At all events, pp. 785-7 of that book are nearly identical with some of the pages of the Peter Ellis book, although his copy 359 (whilst also mainly agreeing with them) contained several important additions. I had previously only compared the table of contents of Peter Ellis and 2299, and certainly they are identical, the latter being clearly a copy of the other, because additions and corrections of Peter Ellis are written straight off in 2299; but it would appear that this table of contents has no real connexion with the volume, and most certainly the body of the book is not copied from Peter Ellis (as Hengwrt 96 is), for not only is the order of the pedigrees quite different, but the matter also; and yet some of the pages notified agree with the body. The pagination of the two tables is entirely different. It is suggested that they have been bound up together by mistake, as sometimes happens; but I think not. and I am inclined to think that the writer was trying to fit in Peter Ellis's contents to his own volume; and both are written on the same paper, as the water-mark shows. There is a collection of the authorities from which 2299 is compiled which is partly wanting in Peter Ellis, but which I fancy "belongs to it, which, if it can be relied upon, gives a clue to the real author of the book. These are all initialled, not always with the name of the author, but generally. The book starts with "E. P.," which stands for Edward Puleston's book in folio; "M. P.," a MS. of my own in quarto; and later on, "' E. P. E.," " my own collections here in folio," principally one of E. P.'s book (no doubt Edward Puleston's).

There is a sheet wrongly bound up between folios 54 and 55 of Peter Ellis, which is copied in 2299, and is headed 'The Comcdacon of Genealogies'; and there is this entry, "Ell his hand in E. P. 23 gre Mr. Davies his hand ibm 6269," and " Mr. Davies his hand in those 3 books of mine numbered with a continued page, viz., 16, 22, 26, 30"; at this point the Peter Ellis fragment is torn off. The continuation in 2299 does not greatly strengthen it, but it gives an important note showing, I think, that Robert Vaughan was not the author of it. It gives It. W., "Hob' Vyn of Wengrais traditions." This was probably an older Robert Vaughan, for his family formerly were of that place.

I conclude from the above that this MS. Peter Ellis is the work, and in the autograph, of Ed ward Puleston. There is a very extensive pedigree of this family in Peter Ellis, and it accounts for several of the names written in this book, for it shows that Edward Puleston, of Havod y Werne, married Margaret, daughter of Humphrey Ellis, of Allrer, who after his death married Richard Lloyd, of Feme; and in the book is contained a paper headed "Notes of Deeds given to me by my Cousin, Hugh Lloyd, of Hope." Now Richard Lloyd had a brother named Humphrey, which may account for his autograph on trie fly-leaf. John Puleston, of Havod y Werne, married a grandson of R. Lloyd and Margaret Ellis, hence the book probably became the possession of Peter Ellis, who made some additions to it. The Ellises intermarried with the Davieses, and no doubt John Davies obtained possession of it legally, as he assorts on the fly-leaf.

It would be interesting to know something of Edward Puleston, but Williams, in his 'Cambrian Biography,'is silent about him; I presume because he was an Englishman; and of course the work which pretends to be com

plete, the 'Dictionary of National Biography,' is also silent—indeed, it would almost seem that no scholar connected with Wales is intended to be included in it. It is a pity that the compilers did not discover Williams's 'Biography,' so that something might be given of Welshmen; however, this grand work is by an Englishman, and this, no doubt, accounts for its chief value and usefulness, for no Welshman ever gives himself the trouble to cite authorities. The Peter Ellis book is full of them—not one, but sometimes a dozen for the same pedigree, a fact which gives this book an immense superiority to 'The Golden Grove Book' and others of that kind.

The connexion with the Ellis family and Robert Vaughan, of Hengwrt, is well known. Williams relates that several of the Ellises were rectors of Dolgelly, near Nanney (Robert Vaughan family's residence), and that he employed the Rev. Thomas Ellis in editing Powell's 'History of Cambria,' 1584, of which he only printed a few sheets, and this may account for Robert Vaughan obtaining a copy of Edward Puleston's book, which (96) was, no doubt, made by Griffith Vaughan, his son. If any of your correspondents can give a better account of the origin of the Peter Ellis book I shall be glad to learn it. Mine may be entirely wrong, since it is, indeed, chiefly conjectural.

The insight which a close study of this MS. has given me of the ways and methods of the old Welsh writers has enabled me to discover the author of the MSS. at Heralds' College, called there Prothero's. Upon consulting them some time since I found that the volumes for Radnor and Carmarthen wei-e missing,and 1 was so fortunate as to find them at the Bodleian Library, Additional C 177, with a letter from Prothero showing that they were part of the set at the College of Arms; in fact, he sold them to both institutions, though he was unaware of the author. 'The Golden Grove Book ' (Lord Cawdor's) at the Public Record Office contains numerous references to both sets, and proves conclusively that they were part of the collections of the celebrated antiquary John Edwards, of Rhyd y Gorz. According to Williams's ' Welsh Biography, 'he published a' Display of Heraldry' in 1724, and his nephew, John Reynolds, published his MSS. in 173"> ; the British Museum has not copies of either. These MSS are supposed to be copies of 'The Golden Grove Book,' hut this discovery gives them an earlier date; the water-mark of ' The Golden Grove ' is George Rex.

I trust there is authority for the assertion that Peter Ellis was of Iscoyd. The date or any information about him I shall be glad to learn. Pym Yeatman.

Thorpe Cottage, Teddington.

There was a family bearing the name of Ellis long resident in Hanmer parish, in the hundred of Maelor, in the county of Flint. Their principal residence was at The Wern, about a mile from Hanmer Church, which may be known to some of the readers of ' N. it Q.' as having been gutted by fire in 1891. There are several allusions to the members of the family in the celebrated Philip Henry's 'Diary,' published by the late Canon Lee. Andrew Ellise, of Hanmer, gent., was one of "the Jury to inquire for his Highness the Lord Protector touching Ecclesiasticall Fmotions " (p. 25).

"1670, Aug. 22. I visited Mr. Andrew Ellis of ye Wern, who thought himself past ye worst, but djrd ye second day after, an upright, peaceable, useful man in his place."

The following year Philip Henry's sister Katharine married Mr. Tobias Ellis, son,

Doubtless some of your readers can identify the dialect of this bill: what appear to be misprints or misreadings may be linguistic peculiarities.

Noel, in his ' Histoire de Commerce,' i, 281, says that the same volume of the 'Bibliotheque' contains a copy of a bill of exchange of 1204, but his reference seems to be incorrect. Q. V.

Egyptian Chessmen (9th S. v. 28).—On what ground does A. M. assert that the ancient Egyptians were acquainted with the game of chess? All the evidence is the other way. That a game was played on a board something after the manner of our draughts is certain ; but chess can hardly be played unless the pieces used are of various shapes, and no such pieces from ancient Egypt appear to be known. Birch states that " the set of each player was alike, but distinct from that of his opponent" (Wilkinson's 'Manners and Customs of the Ancient Egyptians,' ed. Birch, ii. 55, note). This statement is borne out by the illustrations

apparently, of Andrew, with whom she lived I on PP- 57, 59, and 60 of the same work, as unhappily as appears :— I also by the actual pieces with which the

"1680. Jan. 21. Sister Ellis ill, her husb. unkind, Same, was Pla>'ed, some fine specimens of nV/sEiod. i, Romans 8. 17, if children then heirs/ which may be seen at the British Museum.

"'Feb. 11. Received a letter from sister Sarah j A. M. refers to an engraving of " this game"

wherein she wrote mee word of the death of my dear sister Ellis," &c.-P. 284.

I have little doubt that the Peter Ellis, jurisconsultus, was a member of this family, though I have not yet been able to locate his position in the pedigree. "1st" doubtless =Iscoed, the adjoining parish to Hanmer, where Philip Henry owned Broad Oke, and where he lived the latter part of his life. This property is still possessed by his descendants. George T. Kenyon.

| Rnx Of Exchange (9th S. iv. 397). —Tn the 'Bihliotheque de l'Ecole des Chartes' (third "eries, ii. 70, 1851) is printed a protest (dated U November, 1384) of a bill, which runs as


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'Al segnor Antonio Laurenti., ■ ,, ....

•ii?'' e"' so'- Januc [merchant's mark].

'ha nome de Dio, Seta, die vu septembris Hwaxxxiin. Segnor, per (piesta primera litera 1'iyerea a xxx jorni vista a me p. Antonio Grillo DL.xxyi floreni de flor e XXI soldi januari, et sunt p. pambi de cccni lire xv e vi barcelloucnses che 6 ticevudn da Jac. de Varxi a ragione de soldi xmi I*r iloreno; perehe vos prego che fazate bon wrapimento al tempo. Vostro Raimondo Salvador."

This protest is recorded in the books of the notary Theramo de Magiolo (' Notarial Archives of Genoa,' fogliazzo 5, p. 191b) in Latin.

{i. e., chess) in the Art Journal, but the pieces there figured accord exactly with Birch's description, and the writer of the article in which the illustration occurs considered that the game represented was one resembling draughts. If. as stated, one of the objects shows two infants swathed, nothing further is needed to prove that they are not "of ancient Egyptian origin." The idea of swathing an infant would have appeared ridiculous in ancient Egypt, where princesses even went naked for several years of childhood.

Probably this is one of the not very rare cases where a strange object of unknown origin is attributed to that land of strange objects—ancient Egypt. Can A. M. ascertain precisely why such an attribution is made in this instance 1 F. W. Bead.

Marriage Gift (9th S. V. 7).—For the spoon, as a domestic utensil, may be claimed the highest antiquity. The importance of the part it played in the meals of our remoter ancestors (consisting as these did largely of spoon-meats such as puddings, porridge, white-meats, soups, possets, and tnc like), and consequently its importance also in relation to their daily life, seems to have elevated it in the popular estimation to an almost superstitious degree as a symbol

of physical well-being. This fact of its being one of the first things wanted when we come into the world, and one of the last that we part with when we go out" probably accounts for the custom of sponsors presenting their godchildren at christenings with one or more spoons; or, again, that of making such a present on visiting a "lady in the straw whence it is said to "administer comtort to ladies when they 'lie in,'and to every person before being 'laid out'" ; and still again, in the case alluded to by G W' though one was not aware that this was customary. A silver spoon was a talisman in possession of which the recipient or possessor would never want-such it is still to him who is born with one in his mouth— and the gift of a wooden spoon, unless it implied a very modest amount of ",rO0d luck, would seem to convey a sly, if not sarcastic allusion to the probability of the marriage proving at the expiration of five years a failure, because the fifth anniversary ot the nuptial ceremony is spoken of as a wooden wedding," as that of the tenth is called a tin wedding," the twenty-fifth a silver, the fiftieth a "golden," and the seventy-fifth a diamond wedding." Such a gitt also reminds one of a similar distinction conferred upon the last of the honour men the Junior Uptimes in the Cambridge University, who are designated "wooden spoons" because of old they were presented with a wooden spoon, while the honour men had a silver or golden one. At the annual Whitebait Dinner of the Government ministers a rigorous account of every vote of those members who are in the House of Commons having been kept, the lowest in the list is or was, presented with a wooden spoon; and among the presents received generally at the mess-table one Christmas Eve, Lord Kitchener or Ahartoum, who had got into the Engineers by the skin of his teeth," received a wooden spoon in playfully sarcastic allusion to his luck- J. H. Macmiohael.

Wooden spoons are given to brides "for luck. I never heard that any implication ot a jocose or gibing nature was intended A wooden spoon is, however, sometimes sent to a too demonstrative lover to indicate that he is spooney," but this is another story.

C. C B.

The wooden spoon appears to be a sort of jocular wedding present. I asked a man from the country what meaning attached to it, and he replied "Why, it's" to feed the bairns with when they come."

H. Andrews.

At Cambridge the last Junior Optime who takes a University degree is called the

wooden spoon," to denote that he is onlv nt to stay at home to stir porridge, which may be the hidden meaning of the marriage gift of a wooden spoon.

_, „ , Everard Home Coleman.

il, Brecknock Road.

The Name Swigg (9th S. iv. 329, 464).— I his surname is not necessarily "a corrupt form of some German name." Its probable origin is the A.-S. siviye, found in some MSS. as swigge-= silent, quiet; and it should be classed with the numerous cognomens derived from personal attributes or peculiarities, such as (leaving out the purely complexional names) Daft, Moody, Swift with its equivaent Snell, Sharp, Quick, Slick, Wise, Gay, Lruikshanks, Sheepshanks, Golightly, Swire (neck), Speakman, Speaklittle, and manv others; and equated—not etymologically— with the German Stumm, Roman Tacitus, <fec., but apparently not with the German Schweig or Schweich.

I do not, for more than one reason, favour a possible origin from the A.-S. swica, Middle and Dialectal English swike = deceiver, traitor, perhaps seen in an old cant name for a rogue, 'Swigman." Hy. Harrison.

"Wroth Silver" (9th S. v. 4).-His Grace the Duke of Buccleuch is much to be commended for the zeal witli which he has fostered the continuance of the curious Martinmas custom of collecting the "wroth silver" annually on Knightlow Hill, in Warwickshire. On Martinmas day last year that intrepid photographer Sir Benjamin Stone, M.P., formed one of the company of visitors, and obtained a series of photographs illustrative of the ceremony. The scene on Knightlow Hill before sunrise on a dull November morning has been graphically described more than once by journalists who have succeeded in making the necessary effort to be present. In 1896 the Daily Telegraph representative was there, and afterwards dubbed the noble Duke "the last of the Druids." The Daily News devoted to the subject in 1881 an article which contains much valuable detail. In 1892 a Graphic artist was present and sketched the scene. His picture duly appeared in the Graphic of 17 Dec, 1892, and was accompanied by about a column of descriptive letterpress in which the opinions of "two great antiquaries " are given as to the meaning of "wroth." For some years one of the most regular witnesses of the ceremony was Mr. 11. T Simpson, of Rugby. This gentleman collected a mass of information and curious

lore relative to the subject, and embodied the whole in a MS. book which, in the Jubilee year (1887), he deposited at the inn where the annual breakfast is served. From the Rugby Advertiser of 12 Nov., 1887. I quote the following lines from a lengthy description of this unique book :—

"The writer hopes that any one who may be able to throw any further light on the origin or meaning of the wroth silver collection will kindly insert puch information in the space left for the purpose. He states that he presents this book to tho house where the breakfast is held as a memorial of the Jubilee of the reign of Queen Victoria. It is to be the property of the house and not the landlord ; and further, should the wroth silver ceremony cease to be carried out, the writer reserves to himself the privilege of reclaiming the book if ho desires to do so."

It is further stated that "numerous pen-andink sketches are interspersed in the manuscript." The following sentence forms a fitting conclusion to the article :—

"Altogether the volume is one that ought to be preserved with the utmost care, and handed down by those to whose charge it is entrusted."

John T. Page. West Haddon, Northamptonshire.

The Old Church At Chingford (9th S. iv. 537; v. 57).—Durrant's' Handbook for Essex' states:—

"It appears to be of E. Eng. origin, though considerable portions are of the Perp. period. In the south aisle is a brass to Robert Rampston ilosjl and wife (effigies lost), and there are monuments in the chancel to the Leigh and Boothby families, Sir J. Sylvester, Recorder of London, and others."

Is not this old church dedicated to St. Peter and St. Paul, and the new church, built on the village green in 1845, dedicated to All Saints, although the reverse is generally given? Chingford was a manor that belonged to St. Paul's Cathedral. Arthur Hussey.

Wingham, Kent.

The mass of ivy which clothes so much of the building obscures many architectural features, but it is evident that tho larger portion of that which is visible of the exterior must be assigned to the Perpendicular period. Within the ruined church there are traces of Early English work sufficient to show that, though altered in the fifteenth century, the building is at least of the thirteenth. Of anything earlier I do not remember any evidence, though probably a church was here prior to the latter date. 1. C. Gould.

South African Names (9th S. iv. 436, 519; v. 49).—Since my last communication I have come across a pamphlet upon the Cape Dutch

dialect, published at Strassburg, 1896, by Dr. Viljoen, professor at Victoria College, Stellenbosch, in which the pronunciations of most of the names now prominently before the public are figured scientifically. I said that in Kriiger the g is hard; Canon Taylor says that it is not hard ; Dr. Viljoen says that it is completely silent. He indicates this by the spelling Krii-er, riming approximately with the place-name Frere. Villiers and Viljoen he figures as Filjd and Fijiin (not, as one would have expected, Filjun), and Joubert as Jubdr, which means practically the French sound, and shows that in his estimation the final t should be silent, as he says it also is in Du Toit. While on the subject I may point out that for South African names generally, native as well as Dutch, Burchell's ' Travels' (1824), although an old book, is a more reliable guide than any modern work. Among numerous points of interest, he shows that Damaraland and Namaqualand are more correct than the ordinary Damaraland and Namaqualand. James Platt, Jun.

"HoYT"(9th S. iv. 537).—According to Mr. Edwin Freshfield's preface in ' London Church Staves' (1895), in Lancashire the bangbeggar's (beadle) staff was sometimes styled a " silver-nobbed pow," and in South Yorkshire he is dubbed a "knock-nobbier." No allusion is made to wands or staves being called "hoyts." Hoyt is a by no means unusual surname. The publisher of Stone, admittedly the finest monthly magazine devoted to things architectural in the world, is Mr Frank W. Hoyt, of 45, Broadway, New York City, U.S. Harry Hems.

Fair Park, Exeter.

"Hoodock " (9th S. iv. 517; v. 35).—What is understood on Tyneside by "huddock " is the cabin (a word which can only be applied, in the sense of "cribbed, cabined, and confined," to the limited space) of a " keel." This, however, does not appear to have any connexion with the word in the line quoted. R. B—R.

St. Michael's Church, Bassishaw (9th S. v. 6).—At the Consistory Court of London in December, 1898, the question of the removal of the monuments from the above church was considered. That erected to the memory of Thomas Wharton, M.D., and occupying a position at the south end of the east Avail, was specially mentioned as being one of historical interest. It was reported that a descendant of Dr. Wharton and the Royal College of Surgeons had both made application in respect to the removal of this monument, which Chancellor Tristram observed "must be

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