tion and production of the different revenue laws in the States respectively, by which we can judge of the effect likely to be produced by the system we establish, as well as the aggregate produce of a general impost. This will also tend to prevent our burthening the people at large with unreasonable duties, and cramping trade without an adequate reason.

Though there may be some circumstances which may render the business more easy, such as the virtue of the people and the inflexibility of the officers, yet there are also difficulties of a su perior magnitude to those encountered by other nations. When we look at the boundaries of the United States; when we contemplate the proxim

Mr. BOUDINOT. I am sorry, Mr. CHAIRMAN, to hear it suggested by any gentleman, that the proposition for a temporary system of revenue is abandoned; it is not my sentiment that it should be so. When I rise on a question of this magnitude, and which, particularly from my local circumstances, I may be considered inadequate to the discussion of, nothing ought to be supposed to actuate me but a desire of obtaining information and With regard to the second question, the mode performing my duty; and when my sentiments of collecting duty, I own I do not see any informadiffer from those of well informed gentlemen, tion so satisfactory as I could wish. When I rethey will attribute it to the true cause-the want collect the numerous volumes of laws made to se of better information, and not a wish to oppose; cure and regulate this point, the inefficacy of them but the better any measure is digested and under-all, though accompanied with the most terrible stood, the more likely we are to avoid partial ideas denunciations and penalties, and the careful oband attend to what is most beneficial to the gen- serving eye of long experienced officers-I say, eral good. The subject in debate was originally when I recollect all this, and consider it may be brought forward as a temporary expedient to ob- necessary for the United States to adopt a similar tain revenue to support the exigencies of the plan, I own that I almost shrink from the task as Union. It has been changed by successive mo- an extraordinary work, requiring the most supetions for amendment; and the idea of a perma- rior abilities. nent system, to embrace every object connected with commerce, manufactures, and revenue, is now held up in its stead. I admit that the accomplishment of what gentlemen have in view is very desirable, and if we had time for the necessary discussion, it ought immediately to engage the attention of the committee; but I feel such a want of information and ability to judge of the proprie-ity of the eastern territory and the British proty of many articles already enumerated, at the same time I think I discover similar embarrassments in other gentlemen, that makes me think the present moment is, in some degree, improper for deliberating, when we have so little time to spare. It appears to me that this business of raising revenue, points out two questions of great importance, demanding much information. The first is, what articles are proper objects of taxation, and the probable amount of revenue from each. The second is, the proper mode of collecting the money arising from this fund, when the object and its amount are ascertained. There are three sources from which we may gain information on the first question: namely, from the revenue laws of the different States, for I believe a partial revenue has been raised almost in every State by an impost. The second source of information, and a very natural one, is the great body of merchants spread throughout the United States; this is a very respectable and well informed body of our fellow-citizens, and great deference ought to be paid to their communications-they are in a peculiar situation under the present Constitution, to which they are generally esteemed sincere friends-they are also more immediately interested in the event of the proposed measure, than any other class of men. To this Government they look for protection and support, and for such regulations as are beneficial to commerce; for these reasons, I think they deserve our confidence, and we ought to obtain from them such information as will enable the Congress to proceed to a general permanent system on more solid principles. The last source from which we are to derive information is the Executives of the States, stating the opera

vinces; when we turn to the northwest, and ob-
serve Vermont leagued with Canada in pouring
in upon the interior country the manufactures of
Britain; when we consider the natural and politi-
cal situation of Rhode Island, and judge from the
nefarious principles which they have lately held,
and the vicinity of their coast to the extensive
shores of Connecticut and Long Island, we shall
have reason to apprehend that she is ready to take
every advantage of the United States that lies in
her power. When I observe the shores of New
Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Delaware; the wide
stretched-out shores of Maryland and Virginia,
with the waters of the Chesapeake flowing be
tween a winding course of three hundred miles,
penetrating, in this distance, six or seven times
the borders of different States; the coast of North
Carolina, not yet in the Union; the borders of
South Carolina and Georgia upon the Atlantic,
with their numerous inlets, altogether present
such a group of difficulties and embarrassments,
as we cannot remove in the little time we have,
nor regulate upon the information now before us.
The inference I would draw from this is, that we
should not precipitate a business which some of
us think the committee at this time incompetent
to; but it is not for me to desire that such delay
should take place the State I have the honor to
represent being altogether agricultural, at best it
partakes but little of the commerce of the Union,
therefore we shall not be so materially injured by
an improper regulation of this subject,
which derive greater advantages from commercial
transactions.

as those

There are gentlemen on this floor well calcu lated to represent the mercantile interests of this country, and in whose integrity and abilities 1

APRIL, 1789.]

Duties on Imports.

[H. OF R.

have the highest confidence; but it is the duty of the members of this body to see that the principles upon which we act, are those calculated to promote the general good, and not confined to the Mr. LEE was of opinion with Mr. BLAND, and local interests of a few individuals, or even indi-seconded his motion for taking the sense of the vidual States, so that they will decline trusting House on the question proposed. alone to this species of information, when another is attainable.

article, by knowing whether the system was intended to be continued for a longer or a shorter period.

Mr. FITZSIMONS thought it best to make the system as perfect as possible before the committee determined its duration.

I am aware of an objection to this mode of reasoning; it will be alleged that the pressing necessities of the United States for revenue require immediate relief, and permit no delay. This I admit, and it is this which makes me prefer a tem- Mr. MADISON, that the subject which was unporary system for the present to a permanent one. der consideration divided itself, as had been obLet us take, then, the resolution of Congress, in served by the honorable gentleman from Jersey, 1783, as presented by the honorable gentleman into two parts; and hence he concluded that they from Virginia, (Mr. MADISON,) and make it the might very properly be provided for by two sepabasis of our system, adding only such protecting rate bills; and while the Committee of the Whole duties as are necessary to support the manufac- are selecting articles and taxing them, another tures established by the Legislatures of the manu-committee can be employed in devising the mode facturing States. Thus far, we can go with safe- of collection. This method he thought more ty, if we do not descend into a minute enumera-likely to reconcile the opinions of the committee tion; such articles as are readily admitted to de- than any he had heard suggested. serve legislative encouragement, we may take into the list.

A desultory conversation took place on the rising of the committee and on Mr. BLAND'S motion, during which it was remarked by

With regard to the collection of the revenue, I would recommend that until a general plan can be devised, officers should be appointed to collect the impost and protecting duties, in the manner, and under the penalties, directed by the laws of the proper State. It may be said that there are some States which have no revenue laws of this kind, and, consequently, no officers to execute them; I would, in every such case, subject them to the laws of the next adjoining State. By adopting a plan upon these principles, we shall gain time sufficient to obtain full information in the manner I have pointed out, and also reap the harrest of the Spring importations; the latter of these objects I apprehend, will be totally lost by any other system that has yet been suggested. Whatever permanent system we may devise ought to be calculated to give efficacy to trade, while it gives supplies to our treasury. This cannot be done well, if done speedily; while, on the other hand, we might get a temporary one framed against the arrival of the President, without injury to commerce or manufactures, and greatly to the interest of the Union.

At length the question was taken on Mr. BouDINOT's motion for the committee to rise, and determined in the negative.

The committee proceeded to Mr. BLAND'S MOtion, which being withdrawn,

Mr. MADISON observed, that it was impossible, from the peculiar situation of Congress, that the subject of revenue could be entered upon methodically, otherwise he should expect gentlemen prepared with documents stating the national wants, and national resources, and by the one prove the necessity of the other; but though the probable amount of a tax on enumerated articles and tonnage could not now be come at, he trusted in future that it would, and in the interim he recommended gentlemen to exert themselves in giving and procuring information, in order to get some system formed as speedily as possible. With a view to this, he moved, when the committee rose, they should report as the opinion of the Committee of the Whole that a committee be appointed for the purpose of preparing a bill to regulate the mode of collecting duties on imports and tonnage. Then the committee could be ready with a bill on this part of the subject, by the time the Committee of the Whole had gone through the article.

If any gentleman thinks as I do, he will second This motion was adopted by the committee. me in moving, that the committee rise and report Mr. FITZSIMONS agreed with the gentleman as their opinion, the appointment of a committee from Virginia, that the leading considerations in for the purpose of framing such a temporary law. the business were the necessities and wants of the Mr. BLAND hoped the committee would not Union, and the best means of relieving them. No rise, but as it has become a question whether the gentleman objected to the mode of impost; he impost system should be permanent or temporary, therefore was led to believe that it was an eligible he was inclined to favor any motion that should mode. The necessities of the State, including the be made to ascertain that point, and was of opin- instalments and interests of the foreign and doion with the worthy member who spoke last, that mestic debt, and the current expenses of the Govthe committee had not sufficient materials to ena-ernment, he thought might require annually (to ble them to erect a permanent one at this time. use a round sum) about three millions of dollars. He, however, wished the gentleman to withdraw This sum he then looked upon as necessary to be his motion for the present, until this point was as- raised in the present session. As gentlemen certained; and he conceived this moreover to be seemed to agree a large sum should be obtained necessary, because many gentlemen would be by impost, they would consequently be ready to guided in voting the quantum of duty upon each vote for as high duties as could be collected, with

Mr. SCOTT.-The subject before us naturally divides itself into two heads. First, what articles shall be the subject of a particular tax, and what Mr. BOUDINOT reported, from the committee to shall remain in the common mass liable to an whom was recommitted certain clauses of the re-impost ad valorem? The second, what the sum port for establishing additional rules and orders of proceeding to be observed in this House, that the committee had, according to order, reconsidered the same, and agreed to a report thereupon, which he delivered in at the Clerk's table, where the same was twice read, the blanks therein filled up, and, on a question put thereupon, agreed to by

My present design, therefore, is, that the committee should, in the management of this business, conduct their motions in this way. By treating it so, the work may be expedited much more than it can by the vague and indeterminate manner of our procedure hitherto. I would, therefore, recommend that each article be taken up separately, and considered whether it is a proper one for the committee to select or not. There may be some The House again resolved itself into a Com- articles which ought not to be selected, and I think

I discover one enumerated in the list before us, which, so far from meriting a high duty, ought not to be taxed at all; for these reasons, I hope the committee will proceed in the manner I have described, and fairly give their sense on the propriety of each article as it occurs.

Mr.MADISON. I apprehend, sir, that the motion made by my colleague (Mr. BLAND) is out of order; not only because the committee have determined to proceed in the business and fill up the blanks, but because it would be one committee giving instruction to another; for, although we are a committee of the whole House, we cannot exercise the powers belonging to the House, among which is that of instructing committees. It surely is in the recollection of every member, that a committee is appointed upon the subject, which is in the view of the gentleman's motion, namely, that for regulating and ascertaining the mode of collecting the impost. I presume, therefore, that if any instructions are necessary to be given respecting the discharge of the duty of the committee appointed to this business, they ought to come from the House. The motion, therefore, if it is proper at all, is proper only before the House.

[April, 1789.

lection probably different from what we have been accustomed to-a mode so expensive as to absorb the whole produce of the tax.

I wish to lay as large a sum on this article as good policy may deem expedient; it is an article of great consumption, and though it cannot be reckoned a necessary of life, yet it is in such general use, that it may be expected to pay a very considerable sum into your treasury, when others may not with so much certainty be relied upo But, when we consider the relative proportion of the first cost of it, and the fifteen cents duty, we shall find it about one-third. This, I cannot help thinking, is too high, as the risk of a total loss may be ventured in order to save so great a sum; it is surely a great temptation, and I dread its consequences on more accounts than one.

Mr. FITZSIMONS.-I shall trouble the committee with an observation or two, and then submit to the members their choice of the sums, though the propriety of the one or the other is of such a nature, as not to be capable of complete demon-y stration. But it will be readily granted me, that there is no object from which we can collect_rev enue, more proper to be subjected to a high duty, than ardent spirits of every kind; if we could lay Mr. BLAND did not wish to take up the time of the duty so high as to lessen the consumption in the committee in debating a question of order; any great degree, the better. As the gentleman but he would just observe, that he looked upon has just observed, it is not an article of necessity the committee alluded to by the gentleman last but of luxury, and a luxury of the most pernicious up, as appointed on a different subject from that kind. It may be observed, that lessening the conhe proposed to the consideration of the committee. sumption is not the object which the committee They were appointed to devise and digest a mode have in view; but surely, from the considerations of collection adapted to a permanent system of I have mentioned, it is an article for us to draw revenue, which the House, at a time of more all possible revenue from. If it is a fact, that an leisure, might complete; but the object he had in increase of three cents will so greatly increase the contemplation was, for the committee to agree to temptation to smuggle as to make it unavoidable, use a less perfect one in the interim, in order to or increase the number of officers so as to absorb embrace two or three hundred thousand dollars the revenue, then they ought not to be laid; but arising from the Spring importations, which he whether this will be occasioned by so small a difdreaded the loss of, if the business was not soon ference as there is between twelve and fifteen completed. However, as the motion was object-cents, can only be matter of opinion, and to me it ed to as out of order, he would withdraw it for the present, and offer it to the House when the committee rose.

On motion of Mr. GALE, the word rum was changed into distilled spirits of Jamaica proof.

Mr. LAWRENCE proposed to lay twelve cents on this article, saying, I believe, Mr. Chairman, it will be necessary to consider, when we are about to lay a duty on any article, how far it is likely to be collected, especially if our main object is to obtain revenue by our impost. I trust it does not require much illustration to prove to the satisfaction of the committee, that if you lay your duties too high, it will be a temptation to smuggling; for, in the proportion which that sum bears to the value of the article, will be the risk run in every attempt to introduce it in a clandestine manner, and, if this temptation is made too strong, the article will furnish no revenue. I believe, if the committee shall impose a duty of fifteen cents, as proposed by the gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. SHERMAN,) it will be so strong a temptation for smuggling, that we shall lose our revenue altogether, or be compelled to use a mode of col

appears, that the provisions necessary to secure the collection of the one will be effectual to secure the other; therefore I am in favor of the highest sum.

Mr. MADISON.-I would tax this article with as high a duty as can be collected, and I am sure, if we judge from what we have heard and seen in the several parts of the Union, that it is the sense of the people of America that this article should have a duty imposed upon it weighty indeed. The duty proposed by the gentleman from New York (Mr. LAWRENCE) very little exceeds what is laid in this State, and very little what is laid in some other States, while some have thought it expedient to impose an excise superior. The question then is, whether the highest sum can be collected? I am of opinion that higher duties may generally be collected under the Government of the Union than could be under that of the particular States, because it has been the policy of some, not only to decline going hand in hand together, but actually to oppose regulations made in a neighboring State. Being persuaded, likewise, that the highest sum will not exceed the power of