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have recourse to public opinion to support their arguments, they generally find means to accommodate it to their own; the reason why I think public opinion is in favor of the present measure is, because this regulation in itself is reasonable and just.

Some gentlemen think a system of moderate duties will be capable of improvement; every subsequent year they may be increased, and so become more and more productive. If we were on the eve of a war, in which it is presumable our expenses would increase, such policy might be proper; but as we want it only to pay a certain debt, the demand will decrease, and we shall have less occasion for an increase of revenue.

[MAY, 1789.

The House divided on the question; 19 in favor
of the motion, and 26 against it.
So it passed in the negative.
Adjourned.

MONDAY, May 11.

A committee, consisting of Messrs. WHITE, SCOTT, and STURGIS, was appointed to confer with the committee appointed by the Senate, to view and report in what manner the rooms in the City Hall shall be appropriated.

ON TITLES.

The House took into consideration the message from the Senate, communicated on Saturday last, respecting the disagreement of the Senate to the report of a joint committee, on the subject of annexing titles to the offices of President and Vice President.

Mr. PARKER moved a resolution to the following effect:

Resolved, That this House having, on Tuesday last,

I think if we should not support public credit now we have the ability, the people will lose all confidence in the Government. When they see public bodies shrink from their duty, what can be expected but they will neglect theirs also? It cannot be for the interest of the people of the United States that they should continue to pay a high interest, and suffer an accumulatien of the principal of the national debt till some distant adopted the report of their committee appointed to period. Will any gentleman assure us that the confer with a committee of the Senate, stating, “That people will then be better able to pay it off than it is not proper to annex any style or title to the reat present? Have they any certain evidence that spective styles or titles of office expressed in the Conwe shall grow richer as we delay the establish- stitution; and having, in their Address to the President ment of our credit and the payment of our debts? of the United States on Friday last, proceeded to act I think they have not; therefore it is best to get pursuant thereto, deem it improper to accede to the out of debt as fast as possible, and while we have proposition made by the Senate, as communicated by the command of funds amply sufficient for the their order of the 9th instant, for appointing a commitpurpose. tee to confer with a committee of this House, in conMr. LAWRENCE.-It has been intimated by gen-sidering and reporting under what title it will be protlemen in favor of high duties, that it will limit per for the President of the United States in future to the consumption of foreign articles; if this be the be addressed. case, the quantity imported will be lessened; if it Mr. PAGE seconded the motion, observing, that is our object to raise revenue, it is certainly un-in his opinion, the House had no right to interfere wise to destroy the object from which the reve- in the business; the Constitution expressly prenue is to be collected. It is supposed the amount scribed the power of Congress as to bestowing tiof the duties will be insufficient to answer the tles. He did not conceive the real honor or dig public wants; and yet the public creditors have nity of either of those situations to consist in high great expectations from this resource. Let us sounding titles. The House had, on a former occatherefore be careful how we destroy it; if reve- sion, expressed their disapprobation of any title benue is our primary object, and the other consid-ing annexed to their own members, and very justly erations but secondary, we should do nothing to operate against that principle.

Mr. MADISON.-It does not follow, because it will in some degree limit the consumption, that we ought not to lay a high duty on rum; if it has that effect, it will be an ample compensation for the loss of revenue; but probably, as we extinguish our debt, we shall have the less occasion for the revenue itself.

too. After having so fully and explicitly declared their sentiments against such measures, he thought it behooved them to be explicit with the Senate. Indeed, he felt himself a good deal hurt, that gentlemen on this floor, after having refused their permission to the Clerk to enter any more than their plain names on the journal, should be standing up and addressing one another by the title of "the honorable gentleman." He wished the prac tice could be got over, because it added neither to the honor nor dignity of the House.

Mr. GOODHUE.-The object of the committee is to raise revenue, I take it. This would, perhaps, be best done by reducing the duty, but I am Mr. LEE approved of the appointment of a comnot inclined to reduce it so low as some gentle-mittee to confer with a committee of the Senate, men seem to desire: it may be reduced a few as the mode due to the occasion; but he was cents, and therefore I move to insert ten instead against adding any title. of twelve.

Mr. TUCKER.-When this business was first The question was taken for striking out the brought before the House, I objected to the ap twelve cents, as it stood in the bill, on all spirits pointment of a committee to confer with a comof Jamaica proof, imported from the dominions of mittee of the Senate, because I thought it a subnations in alliance with the United States, inject which this House had no right to take into order to leave it blank, to be filled up hereafter. consideration. I then stood single and unsup

MAY, 1789.]

On Titles.

[H. OF R.

wretched by the loss of their only protectors and means of support? This spirit of imitation, sir, this spirit of mimicry and apery will be the ruin of our country. Instead of giving us dignity in the eye of foreigners, it will expose us to be laughed at as apes. They gave us credit for our exertions in effecting the Revolution, but they will say that we want independence of spirit to render it a blessing to us.

Mr. TRUMBULL moved for the appointment of a Committee of Conference, to consider on the difference which appeared in the votes of the two Houses upon the report of the joint committee.

Mr. BURKE hoped the House would express their decided disapprobation of bestowing titles in any shape whatever; it would be an indignity in the House to countenance any measures of this nature. Perhaps some gentlemen might think the subject was a matter of indifference; but it did not appear to him in that light. The introduction of two words which he could mention into the title of these officers, would alter the Constitution itself; but he would forbear to say any thing further, as he had a well-grounded expectation that the House would take no further notice of the business.

Mr. GOODHUE thought the conference unnecessary, because the House had not only adopted the report of their committee, but proceeded to act in pursuance thereof.

MR. SENEY joined the last gentleman in sentiment, and thought it an unnecessary waste of time to give the subject any longer discussion.

ported in my opinion, but have had the pleasure to find since, that some gentlemen on this floor agree that I was right. If I was then right, I shall, from a stronger reasoning, be right now in opposing the appointment of another committee on the same subject. The joint committee reported that no titles ought to be given; we agreed to the report, and I was in hopes we should have heard no more of the matter. The Senate rejected the report, and have now sent us a resolution, expressive of a determination to give a title, to which they desire our concurrence. I am still of opinion that we were wrong in appointing the first committee, and think that we shall be guilty of greater impropriety if we now appoint another. What, sir, is the intention of this business? Will it not alarm our fellow-citizens? Will it not give them just cause of alarm? Will they not say, that they have been deceived by the convention that framed the Constitution? That it has been contrived with a view to lead them on by degrees to that kind of government which they have thrown off with abhorrence? Shall we not justify the fears of those who were opposed to the Constitution, because they considered it as insidious and hostile to the liberties of the people? One of its warmest advocates, one of the framers of it, (Mr. Wilson, of Pennsylvania,) has recommended it by calling it a pure democracy. Does this look like a democracy, when one of the first acts of the two branches of the Legislature is to confer titles? Surely not. To give dignity to our Government, we must give a lofty title to our Chief Magistrate. Does the dignity of a nation consist in the distance between the first magistrate Mr. MADISON. I may be well disposed to conand his citizens? Does it consist in the exalta- cur in opinion with gentlemen that we ought not tion of one man, and the humiliation of the rest? to recede from our former vote on this subject, If so, the most despotic Government is the most yet at the same time I may wish to proceed with dignified; and to make our dignity complete, we due respect to the Senate, and give dignity and must give a high title, an embroidered robe, a weight to our own opinion, so far as it contradicts princely equipage, and finally, a Crown and here- theirs, by the deliberate and decent manner in ditary succession. Let us, sir, establish tranquil- which we decide. For my part, Mr. Speaker, I lity and good order at home, and wealth, strength, do not conceive titles to be so pregnant with danand national dignity will be the infallible result.ger as some gentlemen apprehend. I believe a The aggregate of dignity will be the same, whether it be divided among all, or centred in one. And whom, sir, do we mean to gratify? Is it our present President? Certainly, if we expect to please him, we shall be greatly disappointed. He has a real dignity of character, and is above such little vanities. We shall give him infinite pain; we shall do him an essential injury. We shall place him in a most delicate and disagreeable situation; we shall reduce him to the necessity of evincing to the world his disapprobation of our measures, or of risking some diminution of that high reputation for disinterested patriotism which he has so justly acquired. It is not for his gratification; for whose, then, are we to do this? | Where is the man among us who has the presumption and vanity to expect it? Who is it that shall say-for my aggrandizement three millions of people have entered into a calamitious war; they have persevered in it for eight long years; they have sacrificed their property, they have spilt their I am not afraid of titles, because I fear the danblood, they have rendered thousands of familiesger of any power they could confer, but I am

President of the United States, clothed with all the powers given in the Constitution, would not be a dangerous person to the liberties of America, if you were to load him with all the titles of Europe or Asia. We have seen superb and august titles given, without conferring power and influence, or without even obtaining respect. One of the most impotent sovereigns in Europe has assumed a title as high as human invention can devise; for example, what words can imply a greater magnitude of power and strength than that of High Mightiness? This title seems to border almost upon impiety; it is assuming the pre-eminence and omnipotence of the Deity; yet this title, and many others cast in the same mould, have obtained a long time in Europe, but have they conferred power? Does experience sanction such an opinion? Look at the Republic I have alluded to, and say if their present state warrants the idea?

H. OF R.]

On Titles.

[MAY, 1789.

against them because they are not very reconcilable with the nature of our Government or the genius of the people. Even if they were proper in themselves, they are not so at this juncture of time. But my strongest objection is founded in principle; instead of increasing, they diminish the true dignity and importance of a Republic, and would in particular, on this occasion, diminish the true dignity of the first magistrate himself. Mr. PARKER wanted to know what was the If we give titles, we must either borrow or invent object of gentlemen in the appointment of a Comthem. If we have recourse to the fertile fields of mittee of Conference? The committee could luxuriant fancy, and deck out an airy being of our only say that the House had refused their consent own creation, it is a great chance but its fantastic to annexing any titles whatever to the President properties would render the empty phantom ridi- and Vice President; for certainly the committee culous and absurd. If we borrow, the servile imi- would not descend into the merits of a question tation will be odious, not to say ridiculous also; already established by the House. For his part, we must copy from the pompous sovereigns of he could not see what purpose was to be answered the East, or follow the inferior potentates of Eu- by the appointment of such a committee. He rope; in either case, the splendid tinsel or gor-wished to have done with the subject, because geous robe would disgrace the manly shoulders of our chief. The more truly honorable shall we he, by showing a total neglect and disregard to things of this nature; the more simple the more Republican we are in our manners, the more rational dignity we shall acquire; therefore, I am better pleased with the report adopted by the House, than I should have been with any other whatsoever.

report of their committees; it was proper, therefore, that they should mutually assign their reasons, in order to bring about an agreement to the same resolution. He hoped, therefore, that such a committee would be appointed, though he had no expectation that the House would give up an opinion they so justly and decidedly entertained respecting titles.

The Senate, no doubt, entertain different sentiments on this subject. I would wish, therefore, to treat their opinion with respect and attention. I would desire to justify the reasonable and republican decision of this House to the other branch of Congress, in order to prevent a misunderstanding. But that the motion of my worthy colleague (Mr. PARKER) has possession of the House, I would move a more temperate proposition, and I think it deserves some pains to bring about that good will and urbanity, which, for the despatch of public business, ought to be kept up between the two Houses. I do not think it would be a sacrifice of dignity to appoint a Committee of Conference, but imagine it would tend to cement that harmony which has hitherto been preserved between the Senate and this House; therefore, while I concur with the gentlemen who express, in such decided terms, their disapprobation of bestowing titles, I concur also with those who are for the appointment of a Committee of Conference, not apprehending they will depart from the principles adopted and acted upon by the House."

Mr. WHITE did not approve of a Committee of Conference, because the House had already determined the question by unanimously adopting the report of the joint committee. He did not think that it was worth while having the subject longer contested; he was satisfied both the spirit of the Constitution and the spirit of the people disapproved of titles.

Mr. BLAND would be careful of giving umbrage to the Senate, because he wished that the unanimity and moderation which subsisted between the two Houses might continue. He considered the present as a very proper opportunity for the appointment of a Committee of Conference. The two Houses had disagreed on the

while it remained a question in the House, the people's minds would be much agitated; it was impossible that a true republican spirit could remain unconcerned when a principle was under consideration, so repugnant to the principles of equal liberty.

Mr. SHERMAN thought it was pretty plain that the House could not comply with the proposition of the Senate. The appointment of a committee on the part of the House, to consider and determine what style or title will be proper to annex to the President and Vice President, would imply that the House meant that some style or title should be given. Now this they never could intend, because they have decided that no style or title ought to be given; it will be sufficient to adduce this reason for not complying with the request of the Senate.

Mr. JACKSON wondered what title the Senate had in contemplation to add dignity or lustre to the Presidential Chair. For his part he could conceive none. Would it add to his fame to be called after the petty and insignificant princes of Europe? Would styling him His Serene Highness, His Grace, or Mightiness, add one tittle to the solid properties he possessed? He thought it would not; and therefore conceived the proposition to be trifling with the dignity of the Government. As a difference had taken place between the two Houses, he had no objection to a conference taking place. He hoped it might be productive of good consequences, and that the Senate might be induced to follow the laudable example of of the House.

Mr. MADISON was of opinion that the House might appoint a Committee of Conference without being supposed to countenance the measure. The standing rule of the House declared, that, in case of disagreeing votes, a Committee of Conference should be appointed. Now, as the case provided for in the rule had actually happened, he inferred that it was proper to proceed in the manner directed by the rules of the House. The subject was still open to discussion, but there was little probability that the House would rescind their adoption of the report. I presume gentlemen do not intend to compel the Senate into their

MAY, 1789.]

Duties on Imports.

[H. of R.

be measures; they should recollect that the Senate must tell gentlemen I differ from them, when 3 stand upon independent ground, and will do no- they think titles can do no harm. Titles, sir, I thing but what they are convinced of the pro- say, may do harm, and have done harm. If we priety of; it would be better, therefore, to treat contend now for a right to confer titles, I apprethem with delicacy, and offer some reasons to in-hend the time will come when we shall form a duce them to come into our measure. He ex-reservoir for honor, and make our President the pected this would be the result of a conference, fountain of it. In such case, may not titles do an and therefore was in favor of such a motion. injury to the Union? They have been the occaMr. SENEY intended nothing disrespectful to the sion of an eternal faction in the kingdom we were Senate, but he conceived, after having adopted formerly connected with, and may beget like inthe report of the committee, it would derogate quietude in America; for I contend, if you give from their own dignity, to rescind a unanimous the title, you must follow it with the robe and the resolution; and for what other purpose could a diadem, and then the principles of your Governconference be appointed by the House? They ment are subverted. must certainly suppose that there might be ground for changing their opinion. Nothing of this kind appeared to him, and therefore he was of opinion it would be a useless consumption to waste any❘ more time about it.

Mr. LEE moved the previous question as the best mode of getting rid of the motion before the House: he was supported by a sufficient number. And on the question, Shall the main question be now put? it passed in the negative; and so the motion was lost.

On motion, it was

Mr. CLYMER thought that there was little occasion to add any title either to the President or Vice President. He was very well convinced, by Resolved, That a committee be appointed, to experience, that titles did not confer power; on join with such committee as the Senate may the contrary, they frequently made their posses-appoint, to confer on the disagreeing votes of the sors ridiculous. The most impotent Potentates, the most insignificant Powers, generally assumed the highest and most lofty titles. That they do not indicate power and prerogative is very observable in the English history; for when the Chief Magistrate of that nation bore the simple style of His Grace or Highness, his prerogatives were much more extensive than since he has become His Most Sacred Majesty.

two Houses, upon the report of their joint committee, appointed to consider what titles shall be given to the President and Vice President of the United States, if any others than those given in the Constitution.

Messrs. MADISON, PAGE, BENSON, TRUMBULL, and SHERMAN, were the committee elected.

IMPOST BILL.

The House then went into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States. Mr. PAGE in the Chair.

The question on laying a duty on molasses being under consideration:

Titular distinctions are said to be unpopular in the United States; yet a person would be led to think otherwise, from the vast number of honorable gentlemen we have in America. As soon as a man is selected for the public service, his fellow-citizens, with liberal hand, shower down titles on him-either excellency or honorable. Mr. TUCKER.-Notwithstanding I am anxious He would venture to affirm there were more for a reduction of the duties on all the articles in honorable esquires in the United States than in the bill, yet my vote on molasses will be reguall the world besides. He wished to check a pro-lated by what the committee shall determine in pensity so notoriously evidenced in favor of dis-other cases, as I do not conceive it to be out of tinctions, and hoped the example of the House might prevail to extinguish that predilection which appeared in favor of titles.

Mr. PAGE. If I thought the motion made by my colleague in the least degree disrespectful, I should not have seconded it. I would be the last man on this floor to treat that worthy body with disrespect; but I believe it cannot be construed to have such a meaning. If we were to let the resolution lie on the table, it would not be disrespectful. But what is the object of the motion? Simply to inform the Senate that we cannot rescind a resolution adopted in consequence of the report of a joint committee. If the conduct of either House is in the least degree disrespectful, (though I do not conceive it is,) the body who declined adopting the report, after knowing the sense of the other to be in its favor, is the

most so.

But on what are a committee to confer? Not upon what title shall be bestowed, because we have no right to enter on the subject; and here I

proportion. If a general reduction takes place on the other articles, I shall be disposed to make a reduction on this article; but as mine is but a single vote, gentlemen may not be inclined to favor my proposition for a general reduction, in order to gain my assent to a reduction on this particular article.

Mr. GOODHUE was of opinion that the duties were too high for collection; but he did not agree with the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. TUCKER) that the duty on molasses was rated in proportion to the other articles, and therefore the question, whether molasses shall be reduced or not, did not depend on a general reduction, but on its own bottom; if it was rated too high for collection and proportion, the committee would agree to reduce it.

Mr. FITZSIMONS expected the gentleman from South Carolina would vote in the manner he had pledged himself; he had promised to vote for reducing the duty on molasses if the committee reduced the duty on other articles; now, as they

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had decided against a reduction, he hoped the gentleman would be in favor of the duty on molasses, as it stood in the bill, and not vote in the manner he had promised.

[MAY, 1789.

made by the gentleman in his place. He could not recite the particular expression of the gentleman, but he understood from it that the gentleman pledged himself to reduce the duty on molasses, if the gentlemen from the Eastern States would join him in a general reduction.

Mr. TUCKER.-The gentleman last up has certainly misunderstood me. I made no promise. I said my vote would depend upon the reduction of the other articles, but I was indifferent as to rum; I did not consider the State I represented as being either particularly benefited or injured by a duty on rum; and therefore did not urge any arguments in favor of reducing that article, more than I thought it might be proper to preserve the ratio, as fixed by the House, between the several articles. If gentlemen think rum can bear a high duty, and be safely collected, I have no objection to letting it remain. But there are some articles that bear heavily and unequally upon South Mr. AMES was willing to proceed to the conCarolina; now, I think it my duty to vote in such sideration of that subject; he did not wish it dea manner as to prevent her from bearing an un-ferred to the end of the list, that it might be held due proportion of the tax to be collected; I am, over them in terrorem; there were several consequently, obliged to vote for a high tax on articles in the list, which he did not conceive to articles used in other States, (if my State is highly be taxed too high for collection, or out of propor taxed,) however unequally it may fall. I shall tion with others, therefore it was likely they therefore vote so as to endeavor to oblige other would not be reduced. If this was the case, the States to bear their true proportion of the aggre- reduction would not be general, and the gentlegate sum. I wish to defer any determination man from South Carolina might not think it his on the article of molasses until we have gone duty to favor the reduction of molasses. He through the other articles, that I may know how wished every article to stand upon its own botto vote on this. If gentlemen think my single tom. If molasses was too high, the committee vote of no consequence, they may proceed; but would lower it; if not they will continue it at the I may think the duty too high on molasses, and rate it is, and the business would be done with. If may be disposed to make it five cents, or less, if a the committee were disposed to proceed, he was reduction is made in the other articles; but I ready to take up the subject. would not be understood to pledge myself for any particular sum.

Mr. TUCKER.-I expressed a wish for a general reduction to take place throughout the whole system; but I never made a promise with regard to a reduction of any particular article.

Mr. SENEY observed, that the discussion of molasses had been deferred when the subject was last before the House, in order to give time for a full investigation; but he conceived that no such reason now existed, in favor of its lying over, and therefore hoped the House would proceed to decide upon it.

Mr. CARROLL saw no reason for postponing the business at this time. When the subject was sus

from Massachusetts were absent on business, but it was surely unnecessary now to have any delay. After the repeated discussions it had undergone, he was satisfied gentlemen were prepared for a decision, and he hoped the question might be taken, and the committee proceed to get through the business. Gentlemen should consider the daily loss which the revenue sustained by the delay of this bill; he cautioned them against considering overmuch, and letting slip the opportunity they now had to supply the public wants.

Mr. AMES thought the gentleman from Penn-pended on a former occasion, several gentlemen sylvania (Mr. FITZSIMONS) had misunderstood the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. TUCKER) respecting his pledging himself to vote in favor of molasses. He believed the gentleman from South Carolina incapable of making any improper accommodation either on this or on any other occasion; the subject had never been mentioned to him, nor he believed to any body else, much less could the gentleman's intention be the result of bargain or compromise. For his own part, he would never consent to such a degradation of his rights as a member of the House, as to stipulate for the exercise of his opinion.

Mr. WADSWORTH would not go over the old ground, and enumerate all the reasons why a reMr. TUCKER.-If the gentleman from Pennsyl-duction of the duty on this article should take vania (Mr. FITZSIMONS) supposes that I have bargained to vote for or against any measure, he does me wrong; and if he charges me with such actions, I desire he may state his reasons and explain himself. I did not hear perfectly what he said when he was up before, and therefore did not refute any improper construction he might have put on my arguments.

Mr. FITZSIMONS had no difficulty in declaring his meaning. He understood, when the article of rum was under consideration, that the gentleman held out a promise to vote for the reduction of the duty on molasses if the committee would agree with him in reducing generally. This promise was not made in a private manner; it was

place. He satisfied himself with saying it was out of proportion, and too high ever to be collected with certainty; he wished the committee to lower it to three or four cents, and apply to an excise for the deficiency, not conceiving an excise on distilled spirits to be inconvenient or unpopular.

Mr. AMES was sensible that any further discussion of the present subject was unpleasant, nay, it was painful to the committee; but he had such impressions on his mind in regard to its importance, that he must trespass on them again. On all subjects demonstration is desirable, but there is only one science capable of complete demonstration. Many other sciences admit of differe

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