degrees of demonstration; but of all the sciences on earth, the science of politics is the least capable of affording satisfactory conclusions, while it is the one that, from its importance, requires the greatest degree of certainty; because when we are to consider those things which relate to the welfare of nations, it is of consequence, and nothing can be more desirable than that we adopt just principles in order to come at proper conclusions. In this science it is dangerous to adopt the visionary projects of speculators, instead of principle. We ought to be cautious, therefore, in selecting the information upon which we form

our system.

He trusted to make it appear in the course of his arguments, that the propriety of the particular measure under discussion depended upon local knowledge, and yet it would be found of national concern. He believed it could be clearly proved to be as much the interest of one part as of another to have the duty reduced.

It was laid down as a principle, that all duties ought to be equal. He believed, if gentlemen gave themselves time for consideration, they would not contend this duty was equal. He said he had made some calculations, which demonstrated the inequality to a very surprising degree. The tax operated in two ways: first, as a tax on a raw material, which increased the price of stock and narrowed the sale; and second, as a tax on an article of consumption. It required the distillation and the consumption to be equal in every part of the Union to render the duty equal in its operation; but no gentleman contended that the consumption or distillation was equal. The gentleman from Virginia said, on a former occasion, that Massachusetts would not contribute her proportion of the national revenue, because her exports were not equal to the Southern States, and of consequence her imports are less; but if this fact is examined, it will be found that she does export in full proportion with the Southern States. Examine her custom-house books and you will find it; but Massachusetts is greatly concerned in navigation, and the wages of her seamen ought to be added to the amount of the profits of her industry. Then if we consider her consumption, we shall find it in proportion also. Admitting the people of New England to live more moderate than the opulent citizens of Virginia or Carolina, yet they have not such a number of blacks among them, whose living is wretched, consequently the average consumption per head will be nearly the same. The fact is, that all taxes of this nature will fall generally in proportion to the ability to pay.

Laying a heavy duty on molasses incurs the necessity of allowing a drawback on country rum. By this system we may lose more revenue than we gain; any how, it will render it very uncertain. It is a question of some importance, whether it would not be beneficial to the United States to establish a manufacture, which would be very lucrative. But waiving that consideration, he would ask gentlemen, if there was any propriety in taxing molasses in its raw state with a

[H. OF R.

duty intended to be laid on rum? Certainly this had better be by way of excise. In this mode the revenue would escape fraud by smuggling, which would otherwise be unavoidable. The tax was such a temptation, being thirty per cent. upon its value, that no checks could prevent a clandestine trade being carried on.

Without the molasses trade is continued, the fishery cannot be carried on. They are so intimately connected, that the weapon which wounds the one will stab the other. If by such measures as these we ruin one of the most valuable interests of the United States, will not the people have a right to complain, that, instead of protecting, you injure and destroy their pursuits? He did not mean to say that the people wonld form unwarrantable combinations; but their exertions to support the Government will be damped; they will look with chagrin on the disappointment of their hopes; and it will add to their vexation, that they have been deceived under the most flattering appearances; for who could conceive that a Government, constructed and adopted in the manner this has been, could ever be administered to the destruction of that welfare which it was formed to support?

He recommended experience as the best guide, and said, that it was decidedly against high duties, particularly on molasses; and concluded with appealing to the justice and wisdom of the committee for a determination on this subject.

Mr. CARROLL would not take up the time of the committee with saying a word on the main subject, but begged them to consider of how much importance it was to the Union to get this bill into operation. If every article was to be again debated in the manner it had already been, he could see no end to the business. Unless gentlemen could advance some new and weighty arguments, he thought the time misspent in recapitulating those that had been unsuccessfully urged twice or three times before.

Mr. MADISON thought the arguments against the duty were inconsistent. He believed the gentlemen in opposition had not replied to an observation he had made, and which was of great force on his mind. The gentlemen all say, that a heavy duty will ruin the distilleries and fisheries, and the people concerned in them; yet they profess themselves willing to lay the same duty, but in two forms instead of one. Now he would be glad to know if the distilleries and fisheries would not be precisely in the same situation, let which would take place?

On motion, the committee rose, and the House adjourned.

TUESDAY, May 12.

The SPEAKER laid before the House the petition of Jedediah Morse, stating that he has, at great labor, expense, and risk, compiled and published a geographical and historical treatise of the United States, entitled "The American Geography, or a View of the present Situation of the United States of America," embellished and

illustrated with two original maps, and praying that an exclusive right may be secured to him of publishing the same for a limited time.

Also, a petition of a number of the citizens of the State of New Jersey, whose names are thereunto subscribed, in opposition to a petition of sundry other citizens of the said State, complaining of the illegality of the election of Representatives from that State returned to serve in this House.

Mr. CLYMER, from the Committee of Elections, to whom it was referred to take proofs of the facts stated in the petition of David Ramsay, suggest ing that William Smith, elected a member of this House, within the State of South Carolina, was at the time when he was elected, ineligible, by reason that he had not been seven years a citizen of the United States, reported as followeth :

[MAY, 1789.

DUTIES ON IMPORTS.

The article of molasses being still under consideration:

The Committee also report the following counter proofs, produced by Mr. SMITH, viz: Printed copies of the following acts of the Legislature of the State of South Carolina, viz: An act, entitled "An act to oblige

every free male inhabitant of this State, above a certain age, to give assurance of fidelity and allegiance to the same, and for other purposes therein mentioned," passed the twenty-eighth of March, one thousand seven hundred and seventy-eight; an act, entitled "An act disposing of certain estates, and banishing certain persons therein mentioned," passed the twenty-sixth of February, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-two; an act, entitled An act to alter and amend an act, entitled an act for disposing of certain estates, and banishing certain persons, passed at Jacksonburgh, in the State of South Carolina, on the twenty-sixth day of February, in the year one thousand seven hundred and eighty-two," passed in March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three; an act, entitled "An act to confer the right of citizenship on aliens," passed the twenty-sixth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-four; also, an ordinance of the Legislature of the said State, entitled "An ordinance to encourage subjects of foreign States to lend money at interest on real estates within this State," passed the twenty-sixth of March, one thousand seven hundred eighty-four; a certified copy of an extract from an act of the Legislature of that State, entitled "An act for raising and paying into the public Treasury of this State, a tax for the uses therein mentioned," passed the ninth of September, one thousand seven hundred and seventy-nine; and a printed copy of the constitution of South Carolina; also a certificate from John Edwards and William Hort, Commissioners of the Treasury of that State, under their seal of office.

Ordered, That the said report lie on the table.

Mr. AMES wished to reply to the observation made yesterday by the gentleman from Virginia. Does that gentleman, said he, recollect, if we lay an excise, we prevent the burden from being imposed upon the poor for their subsistence, as molasses, in the raw state, will be lightly taxed? In the next place, it is more favorable to the importers of that article than the impost; it does not require so large a proportion of their capital to be advanced in payment of duties, nor do they run the risk of bad debts, because it may be so regulated that the retailer shall secure the duty. Another reason is, it will save the expense of a numerous host of custom-house officers, tidewaiters, &c. These considerations proved, that if the excise was no better than an impost, it was no worse; and as the duty would be better collected, and give less reason for smuggling, which, above all things was dangerous to the revenue, it was sufficient to warrant the committee in giving the excise duty a preference.

Mr. GOODHUE would not trouble the House long on the subject; but begged leave to repeat the manner in which the molasses trade was connected with the fisheries, and the fisheries with the navigation; that, if the first is injured, the other two are wounded through its side. About threefifths of all the fish that are put up for that market, where. The French would not permit us to carry are of an inferior quality, and would not sell elsethem there, but because we take their molasses in exchange; they will not let their colonies send the molasses to France, lest it interfere with their brandy. Now, any impediment to the exportation of molasses, will prevent the exportation of fish; if we cannot export the fish, for what purpose shall we continue our fisheries? And if they are given up, how are we to form seamen to man our future navy?

Mr. MADISON said his mind was incapable of discovering any plan that would answer the purpose the committee have in view, and not produce greater evils than the one under consideration.

He thought an excise very objectionable, but as no actual proposition for entering into such a system was before the committee, he forebore to say any thing further about it. He admitted an excise would obviate in part some of the difficulties; but he did not think the answer given to his argument altogether satisfactory; yet there was another argument he urged on a former occasion remaining unanswered-it was, that, at this moment, the fisheries, distilleries, and all their connexions, were laboring under heavier duties than what is now proposed; true, the duty is collected in a different mode, but it affects the consumer in the same manner. The gentlemen have said, to be sure, that the duty is evaded; but if half is collected, it will amount to more than six cents per gallon.

It is said that a tax on molasses will be unpopular, but not more so than a tax on salt. Can gentlemen state more serious apprehensions in the former than the latter case? yet the committee did not forego a productive fund, because the article was a necessary of life, and in general consumption. If there is the disposition that is represented for people to complain of the oppression of Government, have not the citizens of the Southern States more just ground of complaint than others? The system can only be acceptable to them, because it is essentially necessary to be adopted for the public good.

Gentlemen argue, that a tax on molasses is unpopular, and prove it by experience under the British Government. If this is to be adduced as a proof of the popularity of the measure, what are we to say with respect to a tax on tea? Gentlemen remembered, no doubt, how odious this kind of tax was thought to be throughout America; yet the House had, without hesitation, laid a considerable duty upon it. He did not imagine that a duty on either of those articles, was in itself objectionable; it was the principle upon which the tax was laid that made them unpopular under the British Government.

It is said that this tax is unjust; now, he had not a single idea of justice, that did not contradict the position. If it be considered as it relates to rum, he was certain the consumers of foreign rum paid a larger proportion of revenue into the Treasury than the consumers of country rum; they paid more than equal distributive justice required; if it was considered as it respected molasses, there would appear no injustice. Molasses was consumed in other States; but if it was not, sugar was used in its stead, and subjected to a duty full as high as that on molasses. But dismissing both these considerations, and even admitting the whole weight to fall on the Northern States, it would not be disproportioned, because, in the long list of enumerated articles subject to a high duty, they imported few or none; indeed, the articles were pretty generally taxed for the benefit of the manufacturing part of the northern community; see loaf sugar, candles, cheese, soap, &c. He hoped gentlemen would not infer from this observation, that he thought the encouragement held out by the bill to manufactures improper; far from

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it; he was glad to see their growing consequence, and was disposed to give them every aid in his power. From this view of the subject, he was inclined to adhere to the bill, and not make any reduction.

Mr. GERRY hoped the committee would not consider the subject as finally decided; he thought it deserving of further investigation, and expected the committee would be satisfied of the propriety of making some reduction. He felt a concern at being obliged to extend the discussion, but his duty impelled him to oppose a measure he conceived injurious to his country.

He meant to consider the subject in two points of view: First, he would begin by premising, that the business of finance was a business of difficulty and delicacy; in Europe, it is considered in this light, and requires to be conducted by the most able and enlightened men. In America, we had hitherto but little experience in this science, and perhaps not more than one man is qualified to fill such an important station as financier; surely, then, Congress ought to be well assured of the justice and propriety of the principle they adopt; they ought to have sufficient understanding and information to be able to demonstrate that their calculations are right. But we are defective in documents to guide us on our way, we are going onward blindfolded, and have seriously to apprehend evils from every step. Nations who are well informed on these points by the experience of ages, never attempt to lay a duty, in the first instance, so high as we propose to do; they begin with small impositions, in order to try what the article will bear, and how far the people are disposed to sustain the pressure in that particular part. They also have in view the certainty of the collection; if they find all these circumstances manageable, then they gradually increase the duty until the imposition becomes equal to what the article will bear. But he had forgot himself; he ought not to touch upon this point, because gentlemen are above deriving advantages from experience; although we are a young Government, yet to be established, we are enumerating and laying duties that could only be proper after many years experience. Now, admitting these duties to be proper some years hence, was it not impolitic in Congress to load the people immediately upon getting the power of doing it, and burdening them in a heavier manner than they ever experienced even under the British Government?

Gentlemen had contended that a duty of six cents per gallon on molasses was just and equal; for his part, he could not discover, with all the exertions his mind was capable of making, how gentlemen prove this to be the case; it appeared to him partial and oppressive.

The principle laid down in the Constitution for an equal distribution of taxes was, that they shall be apportioned among the several States, according to their respective number of inhabitants. This principle is made positive as it respects direct taxes; but he thought the equality ought to extend itself to every possible case. The power possessed by the House, with regard to revenue and the

power of making all necessary laws, enabled the General Government to exist independent of subordinate associations; but if they were inclined to annihilate the State Governments, yet it would be their interest to attend to the advantages of the community, and administer their power so as not to make it burdensome and oppressive. Now, he wished to know what principle of justice authorized the committee to lay a duty of six cents on molasses? Unfortunately for Massachusetts, she imports a greater quantity than the whole Union besides. This makes her interest stand alone, and her representatives are left to labor the point, knowing the ill effect it will have upon their constituents. Under these circumstances, it is necessary to pay particular attention to the justice of the measure; gentlemen should consider that, in such cases, there is danger of interest prevailing over equity and policy. Certainly, if the measure is pursued, we shall discover this effect in the end.

Gentlemen have considered the arguments brought against this duty as standing upon local ground, advocating the local interest of Massachusetts. He would examine this position. It is the interest of a majority of the people of that State, that as much revenue should be drawn from molasses as possible. I say it is the interest of the State, for their interest is divided between the landed and commercial; the landed interest predominates, and it was always supposed that the commercial bore a greater share of the public burden than it ought. The conduct of the State of Massachusetts ought to be esteemed by us as the best guide to discover how far our commercial regulations, as they respect that State, are consistent with policy, if she furnishes the best example. Can we find that she ever imposed a duty of six cents per gallon on molasses? Not a single instance can be produced where she raised revenue from this article. If they then never laid a duty upon it, and they were disposed to get every thing in their power from commerce, we must conclude that if it could have been laid, they would have done it. It is not the landed citizens, if he might use the term, who consume molasses; it is the inhabitants of the sea coast; the former had the power, and they were interested to lay such a tax, it might therefore be expected they would have done it, if they had not been convinced it would have destroyed the fisheries and navigation of the State.

Now, he wished to know upon what principle the committee would proceed to lay a tax which the State Government had considered as injudicious. Was it to make them bear a due proportion of the public expense? Gentlemen had intimated that it was just for this reason, but what was the true state of the question? Massachusetts consumed of every article as much as other States, according to her numbers. If the returns of the custom-house were examined, this would be found to be the case. If the gentlemen from Georgia, Carolina, or Virginia, contend that we do not consume as much, and the result of an impartial inquiry is that we consume more, what

[MAY, 1789.

reason can be offered why we should be exposed to the full operation of this high duty on molasses? Is it because it falls exclusively upon the Eastern States to pay such extravagant duties? Certainly gentlemen will not insist upon this principle. If Massachusetts pays her proportion on other articles, we will never consent to add 120,000 dollars more, when all the rest of the Union will not pay half the sum.

The gentleman from Virginia told us, that Virginia exports more than Massachusetts. I think three times as much. This was a secret never known till the gentleman had disclosed it. When gentlemen want a position to support their argu ments, they assume the commerce of their States to be very small, and hence a heavy tonnage duty ought not to be laid, lest they should be ruined altogether; but if they are to prove the quantum of revenue they contribute, their commerce is magnified, and becomes three times as great as the commerce of the most commercial State in the Union. He thought gentlemen ought to be consistent in their facts and arguments, but he believed such an opinion was without foundation. How, said he, do gentlemen ascertain this to be the case? He had examined the subject with considerable attention, but could find no ground for such a supposition; the gentleman from Virginia [Mr. MADISON] had enumerated a number of articles which were imported into Virginia. They were mere trifles, candles and soap. He'would wish to know, if the duty on hemp and cordage did not amount to more than all such articles taken together. But the articles of which gentlemen complain. can be bought among them as cheap as they can in the Eastern States, allowing only for freight. If they must have European goods, it is to be presumed they suppose them of better quality, and ought to pay in proportion.

If it was admitted that a duty of six cents was a reasonable one upon rum, why will gentlemen choose a mode of levying it, which the State avoided for fear of ruining their commerce? But gentlemen are afraid of an excise, because it is unpopular; rather than run any risk on this account, they would put to the hazard one of the most essential interests of the United States, he meant the fisheries and navigation; but after all, we shall be under the necessity of having recourse to an excise, because this source of revenue will be insufficient for the public wants. The deficiency must be made up either in that way or by direct taxation. He did not think gentlemen would prefer a capitation tax to an excise; for his part, he would choose the latter.

The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. MADISON) cannot see how an impost on molasses can affect the distilleries and fisheries. After having been repeated over and over again, it would be unnecessary that he should dwell on this point. But every one could see the connexion; if we do not import molasses, we cannot carry on our distilleries nor vend our fish; and it will be impossible to import molasses under such heavy duties, at least the future importation will be limited to two-thirds of the present, because the demand will

be in proportion to the increase of price, and the merchant will not have capital to import more than two-thirds of his usual quantity.

He would not reiterate the arguments respecting the fisheries; it was well known to be the best nursery for seamen, the United States had no other, and it never could be the intention of gentlemen to leave the navigation of the Union to the mercy of foreign Powers. It is of necessity, then, that we lay the foundation of our maritime importance as soon as may be, and this can be done only by encouraging our fisheries. It is also well known that we have a number of rivals in this business desirous of excluding us from the fishing banks altogether. This consideration of itself is sufficient to induce a wise legislature to extend every encouragement to so important a concern. In any regulation they make, by which it can be effected, they ought to be sure of the ground on which they go.

It appeared to him, that six cents would have the most ruinous consequences to the general interest; he therefore hoped gentlemen would agree to reduce it, if not so as to place it among the ad valorem articles, at least down to two cents. However, as the committee are not prepared to say the particular sum proper to be laid, he hoped they would agree to leave it a blank, to be filled up at some future stage of the business.

The question was now taken on striking out six cents, and passed in the affirmative: ayes 24, noes 22.

Propositions were severally made for filling up the blank with two, three, four and five cents; five being the highest was first put and agreed to: ayes 25, noes 23.

The committee proceeded to consider the subsequent articles; but not having time to go through the whole, they rose, and reported progress, and the House adjourned.

WEDNESDAY, May 13.

Mr. THATCHER presented a petition from the merchants and traders of the town of Portland, in Massachusetts, stating that the proposed duty on molasses will operate injuriously on New England, and praying that the article may remain free from duty. Ordered to lie on the table.

The petition of John Fitch, of Pennsylvania, was presented, stating that he is the original discoverer of the principle of applying steam-power to the purposes of navigation, and has obtained an exclusive right therein for a term of years, in the States of Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York, and praying that his rights may be secured to him by law, so as to preclude subsequent improvers upon his principle from participation therein, until the expiration of his granted right. Referred to a committee, consisting of Messrs. HUNTINGDON, CADWALADER, and CONTEE, to report thereon.

DUTIES ON IMPORTS.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the Impost Bill, Mr. PAGE in the Chair.

Mr. AMES moved to insert china, crockeryware, and gunpowder; he thought them articles of luxury.

Mr. FITZSIMONS desired the gentleman to change the expression from crockery to earthen and stone ware, which being done, the committee agreed to insert china, earthen, and stone ware, at seven and a half per cent. ad valorem, but negatived gunpowder. The committee afterwards added looking glasses and brushes.

Mr. PARKER moved to insert a clause in the bill, imposing a duty on the importation of slaves, of ten dollars each person. He was sorry that the Constitution prevented Congress from prohibiting the importation altogether; he thought it a defect in that instrument that it allowed of such a practice; it was contrary to the Revolution principles, and ought not to be permitted; but as he could not do all the good desired, he was willing to do what lay in his power. He hoped such a duty as he moved for would prevent, in some degree, this irrational and inhuman traffic; if so, he should feel happy from the success of his motion.

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, hoped that such an important and serious proposition as this would not be hastily adopted. It was a very late moment for the introduction of new subjects. He expected the committee had got through the business, and would rise without discussing any thing further. At least, if gentlemen were determined on considering the present motion, he hoped they would delay it for a few days, in order to give time for an examination of the subject. It was certainly a matter big with the most serious consequences to the State he represented; he did not think any one thing that had been discussed was so important to them, and the welfare of the Union, as the question now brought forward; but he was not prepared to enter on any argument, and therefore requested the motion might either be withdrawn or laid on the table.

Mr. SHERMAN approved of the object of the motion, but he did not think this bill was proper to embrace the subject. He could not reconcile himself to the insertion of human beings as an article of duty, among goods, wares, and merchandise. He hoped it would be withdrawn for the present, and taken up hereafter as an independent subject.

this motion came, said it did not surprise him, Mr. JACKSON, observing the quarter from which though it might have that effect upon others. He recollected that Virginia was an old settled State, and had her complement of slaves; so she was careless of recruiting her numbers by this means; sufficient for their purpose; but he thought genthe natural increase of her imported blacks was tlemen ought to let their neighbors get supplied, before they imposed such a burden upon the importation. He knew this business was viewed in an odious light to the Eastward, because the people were capable of doing their own work, and had no occasion for slaves; but gentlemen will have some feeling for others; they will not try to throw all the weight upon those who have assisted in lightening their burdens; they do not wish