JUNE, 1789.]

Treasury Department.

[H. of R.

I do not apprehend any undue influence opera-sibility to be essentially necessary to secure the ting on the members of this House, because I am public welfare: make it his duty to study the subpersuaded there will ever prevail an independent | ject well, and put the means in his power; we and indignant spirit within the walls of Congress, can then draw from him all the information he hostile to every venal attempt. Nor do I believe it possible to color, with a semblance of justice, either false or base measures against the public welfare; the wisdom of this House can never be thought so meanly of. I trust a majority will always be found wise and virtuous enough to resist being made the tools of a corrupt administration. I, therefore, with confidence, approve the object of the clause.

has acquired, and apply it to its proper use. Without such an officer, our plans will be ineffectual and inconsistent. I have seen too much the want of a like officer in the State Legislatures, not to make me very desirous of adopting the present plan. It has been said, that the members coming from the different parts of the Union are the most proper persons to give information. I deny the principle. There are no persons in the Government to whom we could look with less propriety for information on this subject than to the members of this House. We are called from the pursuit of our different occupations, and come without the least preparation to bring forward a subject that requires a great degree of aslocality of our ideas, which is too commonly the case, and we shall appear not very fit to answer the end of our appointment. Witness the difficulty and embarrassments with which we have hitherto been surrounded. If we had the subject digested and prepared, we should determine with ease on its fitness, its combination, and its principles, and might supply omissions or defects without hazard; and this in half the time we could frame a system, if left to reduce the chaos into order.

I will mention one other circumstance, of no inconsiderable force, in favor of the bill. Coming, as I said we do, from districts with different ideas, perhaps different objects to pursue, much time will necessarily be consumed before a current is found in which the mind of the majority will run; and even then, gentlemen will not be cer-siduous application to understand; add to this the tain they have procured all the information that could be obtained. It appears, therefore, to me, from the reason and nature of things, to be our duty, as wise legislators, to form such a reservoir for information as will supply us with what is necessary and useful at all times.

Mr. BOUDINOT.-A proper jealousy for the liberty of the people is commendable in those who are appointed and sworn to be its faithful guardians; but when this spirit is carried so far as to lose sight of its object, and instead of leading to avoid, urges on to the precipice of ruin, we ought to be careful how we receive its impressions. So far is the present measure from being injurious to liberty, that it is consistent with the true interest and prosperity of the community. Are gentlemen apprehensive we shall be led by this officer to adopt plans we should otherwise reject? For my part, I have a better opinion of the penetration of the representation of the people than to dread any such visionary phantom.

Mr. HARTLEY rose to express his sentiments, as he did on every occasion, with diffidence in his own abilities; but he looked upon the clause as both unsafe and inconsistent with the Constitution. He thought the gentleman last up proved too much by his arguments; he proved that the House of Representatives was, in fact, unnecessary and useless; that one person could be a better judge of the means to improve and manage the revenue, and support the national credit, than the whole body of Congress. This kind of doctrine, Mr. Chairman, is indelicate in a republic, and strikes at the root of all legislation founded upon the great Democratic principle of representation. It is true mistakes, and very injurious ones, have been made on the subject of finance by some State Legislatures; but I would rather submit to this evil, than, by my voice, establish tenets subversive of the liberties of my country.

Let us consider whether this power is essentially necessary to the Government. I take it to be conceded by the gentlemen, that it is absolutely so. They say they are willing to receive the information because it may be serviceable, but do not choose to have it communicated in this way. If the Secretary of the Treasury is the proper person to give the information, I can see no other mode of obtaining it that would be so useful. Do gentlemen mean that he shall give it piecemeal, by way of question and answer? This will tend more to mislead than to inform us. If we would judge upon any subject, it would be better to have it in one clear and complete view, than to inspect it by detachments; we should lose the great whole in the minutia, and, instead of a system, should present our constituents with a structure composed of discordant parts, counteracting and defeating the operation of each other's properties. Make your officer responsible, and the presump-on this body, is disagreeable, and it is dangerous, tion is, that plans and information are properly digested; but if he can secrete himself behind the curtain, he might create a noxious influence, and not be answerable for the information he gives. I conceive this great principle of respon.

Notwithstanding what I have said, I am clearly of opinion it is necessary and useful to take measures for obtaining other information than what members can acquire in their characters as citizens; therefore, I am in favor of the present bill; but I think these words too strong. If it was modified so as to oblige him to have his plans ready for this House when they are asked for, I should be satisfied; but to establish a legal right in an officer to obtrude his sentiments perpetually inasmuch as the right is conveyed in words of doubtful, import, and conveying powers exclusively vested by the Constitution in this House.

One gentleman (Mr. AMES) has said, that the Secretary would be responsible for the plans he

How is it said, that the power of reporting plans for the improvement of the revenue, is the power of originating money bills? The Constitution declares that power to be vested solely in this House. Now, will gentlemen say a money bill is originated by an individual member if he brings it forward? It cannot be originated, in my opinion, until the sense of the House is declared; much less can a plan for the improvement of the revenue be said to be a money bill.

Mr. GERRY admitted that he gave it as his opinion, that it was not an easy thing to find a proper person for conducting the finances in this country; there were but few in Europe who possessed abilities equal to the undertaking. He said before, that he knew but one in America, and believed there were not many to be found. These were his sentiments then, and he had made no discoveries since that warranted a change of opinion. But perhaps the advocates of the bill are acquainted with a gentleman fit for the business; if they are, it is more than he pretended to be, unless, as he said before, it was an honorable member of the Senate, who had made more progress in acquiring a knowledge of this difficult science, than any other person he had heard of.

He would not proceed on this subject, because the House had determined to appoint such an officer, and thereby put an end to the debate. By that vote, they supposed they could find a man equal to the task; he hoped they might, but he was really apprehensive of a disappointment, when he considered the confused and embarrassed state of our public debts and accounts; however,

he submitted to the voice of his country.

The gentleman last up, said he, did me the honor of noticing what I said on a former occasion; but I appeal to himself whether my words were conveyed in the language of the bill. Did I advise any thing like this? Has not the gentleman sagacity enough to discover that my arguments went no further than this, that he was the proper person to give information respecting the public revenues and expenses, the mode of collecting, and the probable remedy for abuses?

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versive of the principles laid down in the Constitution.

The gentleman says, a bill is not originated until it has obtained the sense of the House; what is it then? The bill now under consideration has not obtained the sense of the House, yet I believe that gentleman himself conceives it to be a bill; he uses the term when he is speaking of it, and will hardly deny that it has originated. Í think, sir, whenever the House order a committee to bring in a bill, or give leave to a member to read one in his place, that by that order they originate the bill; and here it is that I am apprehensive of a diminution of our privilege. By this law you give the Secretary the right of digesting and reporting all plans, which is but another word for bills, for the management and improvement of the revenue, and supporting public credit. To what an extent these last words may reach, I shall not pretend to say; but certainly they may include the operations of more departments than one. If the clause will bear the construction I have mentioned, it is altogetber unwarrantable. I said, I differed from the gentleman with respect to the origin of bills, but perhaps this phrase may be applicable to a bill on its passage; all bills, from the time they are admitted before the House, may be said to be on their passage; but they are originated, as I take it, at their

introduction.

Mr. FITZSIMONS was not certain that he under

stood the objections which were made against the clause; but if he did, it was a jealousy arising plans of revenue to the House. No gentleman, from the power given the Secretary to report he believed, had objected to his preparing a plan, and giving it in when it was called for. If this were the case, perhaps harmony might be restored to the committee by changing the word report into prepare; he would therefore move that amendment,, in order to try the sense of the House.

Mr. MADISON. After hearing and weighing the various observations of gentlemen, I am at a loss to see where the danger lies. These are precisely the words used by the former Congress, on two occasions, one in 1783, the other in a subsequent ordinance, which established the Revenue Board. The same power was also annexed to the office of Superintendent of Finance, but I never yet heard that any inconvenience or danger was experienced from the regulations; perhaps, if the power had been more fully and frequently exercised, it might have contributed more to the public good.

But certainly this House contains more information relative to the proper means of supporting the national credit, and how far our constituents are capable of sustaining an increase of taxes, or which mode of assessment would yield more satisfaction. Yet gentlemen propose to give the power of advising the House, in all these cases, to the Secretary of the Treasury. It was always my opinion, that the representative body, from their sense of feeling, was a better judge of taxaThere is a small probability, though it is but tion than any individual, however great his saga-small, that an officer may derive a weight from city, or extensive his means of information. this circumstance, and have some degree of inThe gentleman says, we only give him power fluence upon the deliberations of the Legislature; to give information; that is what I wish, but the but compare the danger likely to result from this clause goes further. Is digesting and reporting clause, with the danger and inconvenience of not plans merely giving information? These plans having well-formed and digested plans, and we will have to undergo the consideration of the shall find infinitely more to apprehend. InconHouse, I grant; but they must have some influ-sistent, unproductive, and expensive schemes, will ence coming from such high authority, and if be more injurious to our constituents than the they have this in any degree whatever, it is sub- undue influence which the well-digested plans of

a well-informed officer can have. From a bad administration of the Government, more detriment will arise than from any other source. The want of information has occasioned much inconvenience and unnecessary burdens under some of the State Governments. Let it be our care to avoid those rocks and shoals in our political voyage, which have injured, and nearly proved fatal to, many of our cotemporary navigators.

A gentleman has asked, what is meant by responsibility? I will answer him. There will be responsibility in point of reputation, at least a responsibility to the public opinion with respect to his abilities; and supposing there is no personal responsibility, yet we know that men of talents and ability take as much care for the preservation of their reputation as any other species of property of which they are possessed. If a superior degree of wisdom is expected to be displayed by them, they take pains to give proofs that they possess it in the most unequivocal man- | ner; this of itself will insure us no small degree of exertion.

With respect to originating money bills, the House has the sole right to do it; but if the power of reporting plans can be construed to imply the power of originating revenue bills, the Constitution is inconsistent with itself, in giving the President authority to recommend such measures as he may think expedient or necessary; but the construction is too unnatural to require further investigation.

I have admitted there is a small probability of a small inconvenience, but I do not think it any more an argument against the clause, than it would be an argument against having windows in a house, that it is possible the wind and the rain may get in through the crevices.

Mr. LIVERMORE expressed an apprehension that the clause originated from a clause in an ordinance of the former Congress; he found now he was not mistaken; but he wished gentlemen to distinguish, in the manner he had attempted to do, between the properties of this Congress and that, from which they might discover the impropriety of adopting it.

He thought gentlemen had sufficiently extolled the excellence of this office, and its advantages. He remembered that the grant of this power to the officer who formerly presided at the head of the finances, had produced some morsels of this kind; the five per cent. impost, a poll tax, and a land tax, if his memory served him right, were submitted; how far these were likely to meet the approbation of the Union, he did not say; but certainly one of them would meet few patrons. From this specimen, he did not form so favorable an opinion as some gentlemen expressed of the revenue plans, prepared, digested, and reported by a Secretary of the Treasury.

Mr. PAGE added, that the late Congress were obliged to submit their plans to the State Legislatures; consequently, there was less danger of undue influence. As this was his principal fear, he would vote against every thing like giving him authority to bring his plans before the House.

[JUNE, 1789.

Mr. LIVERMORE declared the amendment proposed by Mr. FITZSIMONS unsatisfactory, and by no means removing the ground of complaint.

Mr. TUCKER likewise objected to the amendment, because its effect would be precisely the same with the words standing in the bill. Why, said he, should the Secretary be directed to prepare plans, unless it is intended that the House should regularly call for them? The views of the gentleman are to have a uniformity in the system of finance; but how can this be effected, without the plans are always brought before us? Whatever the House shall presume to do on independent principles, may break in upon the Secretary's system, or make him vary his propositions, in order to accommodate them to what we have done. If we must adopt plans for the sake of uniformity, we must adopt them at all times, or lose our object.

However useful it may be to obtain information from this officer, I am by no means for making it a matter of right in him to intrude his advice. I admit, information may at all times be acceptable, but I think advice should never come but when required. Are we to be advised on all occasions, because we don't know when to require it? Are the members of this House incapable of asking for assistance when they want it? Why have we not affronted the other branches of the Government, as well as this House? Why have we not said that the Secretary of Foreign Affairs should prepare and digest plans for the formation of treaties, and report them to the President and Senate, who are exclusively to manage that concern? The cases are exactly similar; but we did not choose to offer them such an indignity. If it is right in one instance, it is equally so in every other. We ought to have given the Secretary at War an opportunity of exercising his ingenuity, in devising plans of fortifications to strengthen our shores and harbors; we ought, in every case, where we have to decide, appoint officers with the same view to aid our deliberations, and, in fine, to perform the whole duties for which we were elected.

Mr. HARTLEY expressed himself satisfied with the amendment proposed by Mr. FITZSIMONS.

Mr. STONE was not afraid of giving the officer the power of reporting plans, because he was sure Congress would, in every case, decide upon their own judgment. A future Congress would not pay such a deference, even to their predecessors, as to follow in their footsteps, unless they were convinced of the good policy of their measures. He thought, if the House wanted to make use of the information acquired by the Secretary, they ought to give him notice of their intention; consequently, something of this kind was proper in the bill.

Mr. SHERMAN thought the principle held up by the clause, was absolutely necessary to be received. It was of such a nature as to force itself upon them; therefore it was in vain to attempt to elude it by subterfuge. It was owing to the great abilities of a financier, that France had been able to make the exertions we were witnesses of a few years ago, without embarrassing the nation.