Sir, I am not without other claims. I have learned to speak two or three of the Indian languages, since I became an inhabitant of these wilds. And, Sir, should any misunderstandings arise between us and them, I can be an interpreter, and may do more to prevent war, than any other member of our community. I claim, then, an influence, equal to this rarest and most useful endowment, which, Sir, requires so much labour and time to obtain, and which, when obtained, is so useful to society. But, I must protest against D's having seven votes for his seven children. They are minors, and under his control, and of immature reason. When they arrive at manhood, and are free agents, but not till then, shall they have a voice."

A rises: " Gentlemen, I see we all have claims for various portions of political Power. I think we must abandon the idea of forming a social compact, upon these principles. I will claim only my single vote, and my single personal influence, and will yield my pretensions, if every other gentleman yields his. I will agree, that we all surrender ourselves, our property, our talents, and our skill, pro bono publico; that each man shall have his own personal influence, and in all contributions for the public service, each man shall contribute in his own way, according to his respective ability."

Mr. Chairman: Here we have in miniature something analagous to this state of nature, of which we have so often heard. And here we have the only true philosophy of the social compact. In this compact, Sir, as I understand it, every man surrenders himself to the whole community, and the whole community to him. We have no occasion to travel so far South, as the gentleman from Northampton, who penetrated those regions until he saw a white devil. Nor need we go so far North with the gentleman from Orange, who found a nation composed entirely of women. He seemed greatly concerned for the political rights of such a nation. But, Sir, he need not have troubled himself much on this account, for such a nation could not continue for more than five hundred years.

While, Sir, I am on the subject of such a state of nature, or viewing man as coming into society, may I not take occasion to observe, that man exhibits himself as pos sessing the right of suffrage, anterior to his coming into the social compact. It is not a right derived from, or conferred by, society; for it is a right which belongs to him as a man. Society may divest him of it, but they cannot confer it. But what is this right? It is that of thinking, willing and expressing his will. A vote is neither more nor less than the expression of a person's will. God has given to man the power of thinking, willing and speaking his will, and no man ever did as a free agent enter into any society without willing it. And, we may add, no men could form a social compact, without first exercising what we must call the Right of Suffrage. It is a right natural and underired, to the exercise of which, every man by nature has as good a reason as another. But this is only by the way.

Having now glanced at this state of nature, and the meaning of the social compact, which in my desultory and extemporaneous way I have done without much method, I would approach the great question, now pending before us: Remarking, however, that so soon as we depart from the doctrine, contained in the three first articles of the Bill of Rights, we abandon the radical principles of our Government, not only of the State of Virginia, but of every other State of the Union. [Here Mr. C. read and commented on the three first articles.] If the amendment should succeed, I shall consider these principles abandoned. A new principle will be sanctioned; the very principle on which the aristocracies and monarchies of the old world have been founded. Give men political power according to their wealth, and soon we shall have a legalized oligarchy; then come the thirty Tyrants; then follow the Quin decemviri; then the decemviri; then the triumvirate; and last of all, comes Julius Cæsar. Gentlemen talk of the docking of entails, and the laws of Parcenary; but a feeble resistance will these arrangements present to a reigning oligarchy. Men love power, and in proportion as they possess it, does that love increase.

This appears to me a controversy merely about power. One party speak as though they possessed it, and had it to bestow. Another contends for it as their right. It is not with me a struggle for power; it is for right, for principles, for justice. I do not think that in order to secure my comfort, happiness, or prosperity, it is necessary to invade the peace, comfort, or prosperity of any man. That I go for principles and not for power per se, I will now shew. And in shewing this, I will shew how unreasonable it is, for the opponents of reform to ask us for a guarantee against oppression. The power will be vested in the very hands of those who ought to hold it as umpires between the rival interests of the east and the west. We shall take the present number of Representatives for the data. That number is two hundred and fourteen: Of these, the forty-five counties and four towns on tide-water, have at present ninety-four representatives on the white population basis, they would have only seventy-two and twotenths representatives: That is, according to the Census of 1820; which will as correctly demonstrate the principle, as any document we could obtain. The country west of the Alleghany, containing thirty-three counties, has at present sixty-six re

presentatives. On the white population basis, that district of country would have only sixty-one and four-tenths. We should then lose four and six-tenths representatives. Thus the nine Senatorial Districts on tide-water would lose twenty-two representatives, and we nearly five. In all, these two Districts would lose nearly twenty-seven representatives. Now, the question is, what sections of the State would gain this power. We lose, but who gains: I answer, the twenty counties making the six Senatorial Districts east of and along the base of the Blue Ridge, would gain nearly twelve representatives, and in this District, there are no less than 136,919 slaves. The remaining fifteen representatives would be gained by the seven counties, or three Senatorial Districts in the Valley beyond the Ridge, having 23.963 slaves. Thus, the power lost in the counties on tide-water and west of the Alleghany would be deposited in that part of the State, which, from its central position and from its dense slave population, would be the safest deposit which the fears of the slave-holders could devise, and which would afford to them the strongest and best guarantee against those encroachments of the non-slave-holders which the evil-boding imaginations of some gentlemen have conjured up. We are not, then, Mr. Chairman, contending for power for ourselves, but for principles, which, let them operate as they may, we believe, cannot fail to benefit the whole Stite, by distributing power where it ought to be, and by divesting our Government of those odious aristocratic features, which have caused and are daily causing the sceptre to depart from Virginia. So repugnant are many features in our Government to the Republican feelings which prevail in other States in this Union, that a majority of our own freeholders cannot approve them; and if they cannot approve them, how can we suppose that citizens from other States can be induced to locate themselves amongst us:

The statistical documents submitted, and the argument deduced therefrom, further prove the fallacy of the hypothesis upon which the gentleman from Hanover, based the greater part of his remarks. It shews these to have been as groundless as that other assumption of his that we were going to lose, or in danger of losing, the 1-11th part of our power in the Federal Government, if the doctrine of making three white men out of fire negroes, or of putting fire souls into three bodies, should cease to be the popular practice in Virginia. He did not tell us, indeed, why Virginia gave up 2-5ths of her slave population to the Union; in this she erred, unless she intended to give up the other 3-5ths to her own white population.

But that I may not too far impose upon the time or patience of the Committee, I shall only now call your attention, Sir, to one or two other items.

I have been sorry, very sorry, Sir, to observe in sundry gentlemen on this floor, a disposition to treat us as aliens, or as persons, who have no common interest with the people of the east. We have given them no reason to suspect our want of fellowfeeling, or of common interest. Let gentlemen but reflect upon the circumstances of this State in the year 1 14. When all the militia east of the Blue Ridge were employed, or chiefly employed in patrolling the counties on the seaboard, and generally east of the Ridge, in order to preserve that property for which a guarantee is now demanded: I say, when your militia, Mr. Chairman, were all needed to prevent insurrections amongst your own discontented population, who was it that fled to your succour and protection from an invading enemy, who were disposed to harrass your seaboard, and to augment the discontents of your slaves? The Valley and the wee t volunteered their aid. Yes, Sir, the single county of Shenandoah gave you twel ve hundred men to fight your battles, or rather, the battles of their own State. T ney made a common cause with you. And, Sir, the bones of many a gallant and brave citizen of the west, lie in the sands of Norfolk. Men, too, who had no suffrage, no representation in your Government, sacrificed not their property only, but their rives also, in your defence. In one company, Sir, consisting of seventy-four persons, who marched from Culpeper Court-house, but two had the right of suffrage! Yet these men gave not sufficient evidence of common interest with, nor cominon attachment to, the community!!! Yes, Sir, from the very shores of the Ohio, from my own county of Brooke, they marched to your succour, and hazarded their all, their earthly all, in defence of that very country, and that very Government, which treated many of them as aliens in the land of their nativity.

We have been told that nearly 3-4ths of the tax has been paid by the counties east of the Blue Ridge. But these gentlemen tell us nothing about who fight the battles of the country. But, Sir, the disproportion between the east and the west, in the tax-paying department, will every day diminish. As the west increases in population and improvement, its ability to pay will increase, and its property will increase in value.

It were endless, Sir, to notice the many objections made against the surrender of power, or rather, the arguments offered, to retain a power already assumed and possessed. I will only remark, that it is said, that if the white basis should obtain, there will be endless discontentment among many of the citizens of this Commonwealth. But, Sir, if the black basis, or the money basis, as it should be called, should obtain,

would it diminish, or terminate discontentment or complaint? No, Sir; in that case, a majority, a large majority of the freeholders, would be irreconcileably discontented. And, Sir, if discontents, murmurs and complaints must, on any hypothesis, exist, the question is, whether in policy and in justice, they had not better be confined to the minority, than spread through a majority of the citizens of this Commonwealth? And which party would have the best reason to be discontented, let the umpires throughout all Republics decide.

But, Sir, in the last place, I must say that the policy of those gentlemen who advocate the money basis, appears to me, not only an anti-republican, but a short-sighted policy. That policy which augments the power of wealth, which tends to make the rich man richer, and the poor man poorer, is the worst policy for such a community as this is, and must be, at least for some time to come. Little do the rich think, when charned with the fascinations of wealth and power, when they are eager to secure and augment both, by Constitutional and Legislative provisions, that they are fighting against their own offspring, and proscribing their own posterity. And, Sir, is not posterity, is not our children's happiness dearer to us than our own? Do we not daily see that riches are ever making to themselves wings? Is not the great wheel of fortune, as some gentlemen call it, eternally revolving. Those at the summit must descend, and those in the mire must ascend. Where are the noble and wealthy families that flourished in this Commonwealth some sixty or seventy years ago? Some of their descendants may yet be found sustaining the name, the talents and respectability of their ancestry. But how many of them have. to use the words of Bonaparte, sunk down into the Canaille? There are few of the wealthy now liv ing, who have not their poor relatives and connexions, and how long, or rather how short a time, will it be, till the decendants of most of us will have merged themselves amongst the humble poor and the obscure? My views of men, and of the revolutions in human affurs, make me a republican. My love for my own posterity would prevent me from voting for the amendment, i. I had no other consideration to govern me. If I hnd the wealth of Stephen Girard, I could not, feeling as I do, viewing human affars as I do, looking back into history, or forward into futurity, I could not consent to bul up an aristocracy, because I should be erecting embankments and bulwarks against those dearer to me than myself. I do most sincerely wish that gentlemen would look a little before them, and remember the lot of man, lest they should, in at temp ing to secure themselves from imaginary ev.ls, lay the foundation of real and lasting ones. To conclude, Sir, the policy of those gentlemen who are securing, or atte.npting to secure to the nselves exclusive privileges, and to defend themselves from an imaginary evil, reminds me of a character which Dr. Johnson depicts in one of the pipers in his Rubler. A young gentleman much afraid of thieves and robbers breaking at h's rom at night, beca.ne distrustful of all the locks and keys in common use, as guarantees of his person and property. He put his ingenuity to work, to invent a new lock and key, which could not be violated. He succeeded to his wishHe had his room for fied to quiet all his fears. He one day called in a friend to exhibit to him his ingenuity. It required some two or three minutes to lock and unlock the door. The gentle nan after ad niring and commending his ingenuity, remirked, why, sir, said he, this is certainly a great defence against thieves and robbe rs, but it is so difficult to unlock, I should fear that if the house were to take fire, you might be consumed before you could open the door and escape. I declare, sir, said the young gentleman, I never thought of that. Hereafter I will sleep with my door, ot only unlocked, but half open.

es.

Mr Scott of Fauquier, rose to ask for the reading of the question before the Con. vention; which being done, he proposed to amend the amendment by adding, " and in the Senate, on white population exclusively." (The effect of this proposition would be, to apportion the House of Delegates, by population and taxation combined, and the Spit by white population exclusively.)

Mr.Scort rose and addressed the Committee as follows:

Mr Chiran: Labouring under a disease which not only emaciates the frame, but clouds the intellect, were I to consult my own interest apart from that which I have in common with the inhabitants of that portion of the State which I have the honor in part to represent, I should abstain from troubling the Committee with any remarks on the question now before it. But, Sir, I have a duty to perform which compels me to make the effort, however unsuccessful it may prove. Mr. Chairman, the people whom I in part represent, have not been in the habit of singing hosannas to the present Constitution. They think it has def cts, and that they have suffered evils under its operation. I have participated in these sentiments. To remedy these evils wa have united with our brethren of the west to bring about this Convention. But I fear they will prove Roman allies, and we shall only have the privilege of changing our

masters.

Mr. Chairman: After the frost-work of mere abstractions, constructed by the gentlemen on the other side, had melted before the rays of the genius of the gentleman

from Northampton, the member from Ohio has endeavoured to build it up again, with what success I leave the Committee to judge. When I set about a task, Sir, my first enquiry is, what is the end to be accomplished? Having ascertained this, I then look about for the means which are at hand. The end which we all have in view, is to secure the blessings of liberty to the people of Virginia, and their posterity; the means by which we propose to accomplish it, is to recommend to them a frame of Government best calculated to attain that end. In constructing this Government, we are /not necessarily driven back to the natural rights of man. If we are satisfied that the safety of the whole community requires, that the powers of Government should be placed in the hands of a minority, we are bound to recommend it to the people to place them there. And if they give it their sanction, the right of the minority is as legitimate as the jus majoris contended for by gentlemen on the other side. All the questions which can arise are mere questions of the fitness of means to an end. I would not be understood as discarding all principle. On the contrary it will be found that I agree with the gentlemen who are so very fond of theory in the principles which I shall take as my guide, although I shall apply them differently. The difference between these gentlemen, and myself, is this: they form a garment according to their ideas of exact symmetry without enquiring whether, or not, it will fit the person who is to wear it. I propose to take his measure before I apply the shears to the cloth. They profoundly skilled in the healing art, compound a medicine, containing the quintessence of the Materia Medica, and administer it in all cases. I propose to feel the pulse of the patient, and examine the symptoms, before I prescribe the remedy.

Mr. Chairman, I have already said, that the object of our 'bours, is to secure to the people of Virginia, and their posterity, liberty and safety of persons and property. To effect this, a certain quantity of power must be called into action. The first reflection which strikes us, is, that power entrusted to human agents, is liable to abuse. To guard against this abuse, constitutes the chief difliculty in framing a Government. The first expedient resorted to, is to call into action no more than is necessary to attain the end. Too much power is liable to run into abuse from its mere excess. The next expedient is not to confide all to the same hands: hence the separation of the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial Departments. But this separation has not in practice been found sufficient. It is not enough to check power by power. Some further security has been found necessary. The best reflection which I have been able to give to the subject, has brought me to adopt this maxim, "as far as practicable, to deposit power in the hands of those only whose interest it is not to abuse it." If we look around us into the ordinary affairs of men, we shall find that interest is the great spring of action. What is it that makes agriculture flourish? What is it that builds your cities, and makes commerce spread her wings? What inspires the poet and nerves the soldier's arm? It is love of wealth, fame, and distinction. In a word, it is self-love. I have not much experience in legislation, but I appeal to gentlemen here who are experienced both in Federal and State legislation, whether they are ever so sure of a vote as when they appeal to the interests of those whose vote they want. It would be out of order, Sir, to speak of the members of this House: One remark, however, I take leave to make. Although so much devotion is shewn to principles, the principles of gentlemen do quadrate most marvellously with the interests of their constituents. I do not mean to cast imputations on gentlemen. I do not mean to question the sincerity of their attachment to principle. But when I see honourable and intelligent mea, with all their devotion to principle, unconsciously influenced by interest, I set an higher value on the security which interest gives against the abuse of power. The guarantee of interest constitutes the chief difference between Republican, and Aristocratic, or Monarchical Governments. The responsibility of public agents, resolves itself into this principle. By causing the law-maker to mingle with the people, and to be subject to the laws which he has enacted, you make it his interest to enact just laws. By subjecting him to re-election at short intervals, you make it his interest to consult the welfare of his constituents in order that he may be reelected. Sir, I think I can boast of as many attached and disinterested friends as any gentleman here, but my experience teaches me, that I am never so sure of the good offices of another, as when I make it his interest to serve me. There are it is true, many bright exceptions to the influence of the selfish principle. The annals of mankind occasionally set before us examples of self-sacrifice on the altars of patriotism and virtue, but they are few when compared with the sacrifices of patriotism and virtue on the altars of ambition and avarice; and serve by their splendour, to render more visible, the dark shades of the human character. Here then we have a great principle founded in human nature, which will serve as a touchstone for every grant of power that we propose to make. Let us bring the question before the Committee, to this test. What will be the effect of the principle reported by the Legislative Committee? It will give to the people west of the Blue Ridge, if not immediately, in a very short time, a majority in the Legislature. No gentleman has questioned this, but my friend from Frederick. He seems to think that the majority of whites will remain, as it now

is, east of the Ridge. If we look to the documents furnished by the Auditor, we shall find that the increase of whites west of the Ridge, greatly exceeds that on the east ; and if it should continue in the same proportion, a majority will, in a very short time, be found west of the Ridge. If we look at the face of the country, we shall come to the same conclusion. A great proportion of the land below the head of tide-water, is worn and exhausted. That between tide-water and the Ridge, is in a similar con'dition, except a strip bordering on the mountain. This is capable of regeneration, and will sustain an increased population. It is of less extent than what is called the Limestone Valley, which, from the fertility of its soil, is capable of sustaining a dense population. The country east of the Ridge, has no new lands to settle. There is no room for a great increase of population. A large portion of fertile land west of the Alleghany is yet unsettled; and when it is brought into cultivation by the influence of the Chesapeake and Ohio canal, it must give a vast accession to the popula tion of that region. I will ask the gentleman, under whose patronage that work is progressing, whether he does not expect it will succeed? The population which this will add to the west, must be exclusively white. From the vicinity of the country through which it passes to Pennsylvania, slaves cannot be held there. But, Sir, it is unnecessary to pursue this argument farther. We have it on the authority of the gentleman from Brooke, (and no man is better acquainted with the situation and resources of that country,) that in thirty years a majority of the white population of the State will be found west of the Alleghany. I feel, therefore, warranted in assuming as the basis of my argument, that the country west of the Ridge, does now, or soon will contain a majority of the white population of the State.

Let us now enquire whether the people of that region can give the security we require against the abuse of the power which the Legislative Committee proposes to give to them. I agree with the gentlemen on the other side, that as a general rule, a majority ought to govern. A majority of persons will prima facie, comprise a majority of interests. But this rule is certainly liable to exceptions. The power of the majority must have limits. We all propose to kmit it by denying to the Legislature the power of passing ex post facto laws, suspending the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus, &c. The only question is, what limitations shall we impose? I answer, all such as are necessary to protect the rights and interests of the governed. It is for me to shew that the limitation, which I propose, is necessary for our security. To that end, let us take a survey of the points of difference between the portions of the State, lying east and west of the Ridge. The first point of difference which strikes us, is the erroneous disproportion of the taxes paid by the two regions. I will not dwell on this part of the subject, after the luminous exposition given by the gentleman from Hanover. The next point of difference, is in the character of the population. Eight-ninths of the slaves are found east of the Ridge. In all laws relating to this species of property, the people west of the Ridge are interested to the extent of one-ninth only. But the gentleman from Frederick thinks that this property will not be in danger, because the slave-holders west of the Ridge, when added to those of the east, will give a majority. Suppose it is so. Why, I ask, should the people below the mountain, transfer all the power necessary for their protection, to the people above? This may be very agreeable to those who kindly offer to become our guardians. But the people whom I represent have a notion, (it may be a very unphilosophical one,) that their affairs will be never the worse managed, because they have a hand in the management of them. But, Sir, in that part of the Valley to which we are invited to look for protection, the slaves are to the whites as one to four. In the counties more particularly alluded to by the gentleman from Frederick, they are as one to three. The proportion which the slave-holders bear to the non-slaveholders, cannot be greater, and may be, and probably is less. It cannot be greater, because if the slaves be divided, so that no person shall hold more than one, there will be three who hold none, for one who holds one; and when the war between the non-slave-holders and the slave-holders shall be waged, the slave-holders will be outvoted at the polls. So far from protecting us, they will be unable to protect themselves. We cannot aid them, for they will have tied our hands. I ask the gentlemen representing that part of the State to which I belong, and which is deeply interested in this question, whether they are willing to accept of such a security as this? Would they not rather have the means of protection in their own hands? Will they not prefer the guarantee which I demand? With that security, we shall not want the lock of the gentleman from Ohio. I can trust my gold to a man whose interest it is

to restore it to me.

There is another interest connected with this branch of the subject, which deserves our serious attention. Of the twenty-two members to which this State is entitled in the House of Representatives of the United States, seven represent the slave population. Now, if we establish it as a principle that the white basis is the true one for apportioning representation in the State Legislature, will it not follow that as between ourselves, it is also the true basis for apportioning members of Congress? And, if