bility of taking these courses; and when such courses are given we can logically expect a few young men to take such courses from their interest in them and on the chance of getting into the army; and in due course of time, if Congress passes legislation by which these young men have a natural and legitimate outlet into the army or into the reserve, the courses will undoubtedly become more popular. I think that is all I have to say, gentlemen; but I happen to notice that Major Dapray, of the military department of the Maryland College is here, and perhaps we could hear a word from the Major along the general line of this matter. CHAIRMAN TYLER.-May we hear from Major Dapray? MAJOR DAPRAY.Dean Orton in his address before the association at the Willard last year presented the arguments in favor of milltary instruction in colleges as forcibly as that question could be presented, in my opinion; and everything that he has recommended is certainly deserving of very thoughtful consideration. Everything he has said this morning appeals very strongly to the thoughtful student of this question. In immediate connection with the remarks of Dean Orton, however, I want to suggest this consideration particularly, as I believe he is in a position largely of guide in these matters, certainly the recognized champion of what ought to be done: that when it is proposed that we detail more than one officer to institutions, we should graduate these institutions according to numbers. For example, an institution, as I understand it, that has 500 or certain other numbers may be entitled to an additional officer. The object of assigning an additional officer to any institution of this kind, as I understand it, would be because of the necessity for additional instruction service. You must take into consideration the fact that at some of these institutions the time alloted to the military department for its work is very meager. For example, speaking of our own institution, which I am not representing formally today-I am only speaking in my personal capacity-I may say that under the new regime, that is working very successfully, we have one hour per day alloted to the military department. There may be, however, times when a part of the drill hour is taken for some other purposes and classes are taken away. What I would suggest to Dean Orton to consider, is this matter, with his conferes, would be that this additional officer should be allotted to institutions wherever needed; and it seems to me there could be some fair rule of procedure, some intelligent rule, by which both the War Department and the institution concerned could be guided and controlled. For example, if I am out drilling in the open air on the field a battalion, whether it be of 300 as we have, or 500 as is proposed for one man, or even 750, I must give my time and attention there to the work that is in hand on the parade ground. The men who are to be instructed in something else during that same hour, if that is the only hour allowed and if, as at our institution, we have a military period limited; you will observe that one officer can only give his time and attention to that which is embraced within the whole hour in the open, and there must be class work during the same hour. If the chairman will permit me and Dean Orton will allow me, I will say that there is one feature of this subject which has not been submitted or brought out; it has not been developed even amongst military men in the discussion of the question. Last year, with the approval of the higher military authorities, and in my own individual capacity, I studied up some features of this question and submitted what, I think, was submitted for the first time, a proposition which should appeal to you gentlemen. All of the laws governing this question of military instruction in the schools may be found in the little pamphlet which is distributed on the tables in the Willard Hotel, and some here, containing the laws governing this subject. You will observe that in the law as it passed in 1890 and in 1907, which was an amendment of the 1890 law, in both of them and in the original law of 1862, the doing of certain things are made mandatory upon the schools. Senator Morrill himself has defined them: the farm, the workshop and the battlefield. As far as I know, there is not that degree of military training in the schools and education contemplated by the law; there is not that degree of mechanical engineering or civil engineering contemplated by the law. The law says that not a dollar of this large appropriation shall be paid to any institution except upon the certificate of the Secretary of the Interior. If the Secretary of the Interior refuses to issue that certificate, as was done in the case of the South Carolina institution for three years, when that school went without its appropriation-the money can not be paid. It then takes a law of Congress to give to the school, to the suspended institution, the money that is due it. The point I am coming to is this: That until now this question seems to have rested with those in the Interior Department entirely. The proposition has been made, that the President of the United States, acting for all the departments, and co-ordinating their general plans, has the right, if it may not be his duty, to listen to other departments concerned. The laws of 1888, and other laws, have given the Secretary of War the right to go into your institutions and to supervise the military work. Every year he sends officers of the army and general staff to find out whether this kind of work is sufficient and efficient; and the time has come when it has been suggested that he might appeal to the President to consider whether his department is not concerned, and to ask that the matter be suspended in the Interior Department until it can be judged whether sufficient military instruction is being given in the schools. Do you know that of the 92,000 students enrolled, according to the statistics of last year, there were only 22,000 of those in the military department, and only 10,000-less than 10,000-in the agricultural department? To be more accurate, I will state it differently: The agricultural departments received last year twenty-two per cent, and the engineering departments twenty-six per cent, making forty-eight per cent of this whole amount of two and a half million dollars appropriated, which is less than one-half. The military department got nothing in the allotment, according to the figures furnished by the Bureau of Military Information. Military instruction, the military organization, the capacity to organize and to direct is closely allied with the engineer's work. I can not make the case any stronger than Dean Orton has done, but I am glad to second his effort. CHAIRMAN TYLER. We are very much obliged to Major Dapray for the interesting statement he has made. Is there any further discussion of the matter of military instruction? DEAN TALIAFERRO.-One thought occurred to me in connection with two officers being detailed to any institution. I presume that, without knowing exactly what the conditions are, the probability is that one man would be detailed as what we call commandant of cadets, to take care of the general military work, and these other men probably in connection with engineering work or the demand for military engineering. I should think that would be the proper basis of their assignment. He might, of course, assist the commandant in his work. Right there, however, a difficulty will arise. I happened to be associated with an institution at one time it was a military school; I was raised in one in which there was an officer detailed by the War Department for certain purposes. He was not acting as commandant, but he helped the commandant in certain relations. Not long after that another officer was detailed as commandant. Before this time there had been a civilian commandant. Immediately a hitch arose. The gentleman who was first detailed happened to rank the commandant, and therefore he could not serve under him; and it required a good deal of diplomacy to get matters adjusted. The place of which I speak was the Virginia Military Institute. The first man was detailed as an instructor in gunnery. He was an artilleryman. The other was a cavalry officer detailed as commandant of cadets. It seems to me that if we are going to have a man as commandant and have other officers, one of two things has to be done. Either the other gentlemen who are detailed to this institution must be lower in rank, or in numbers, if of the same rank as the commandant if they are to serve under him, or they must be detailed and serve under no one but the president of the college, or possibly serve with the school of engineering. I do not know whether that has been thought of at all, Dean Orton, but it is a matter that has created trouble before, and I thought I would mention it. I, naturally, am thoroughly in sympathy with the drill being carried out in the proper manner in so far as it is ordered. I believe that men should be suspended if they do not carry out their military work properly. I do not believe, however, in attempting to make the land grant college a military school. I do not believe that that is the place for a military school. CHAIRMAN TYLER.-Is there any further discussion. DEAN RANDOLPH.-I am sorry to have to disagree with the gentleman who has just spoken. The institution with which I am connected is a military school. About the only thing it has not equal to the others, or as strict as the others, is guard duty. My reasons for the strong opinion that I have in favor of vigorous military policy is suggested in what Major Dapray said of the value of organization. I have in mind a young man of twenty-six or twenty-seven who was made superintendent of motive power of a railroad and had under him some five hundred to a thousand men. The receiver of the road told him that his greatest recommendation was that he was a Virginia Military Institute man, and had been well trained. This man was a graduate of one of the best schools of mechanical engineering in the country, had years of experience in the shop, and yet to that receiver the best recommendation was that he had had a vigorous military training. I have had a good deal to do with organization in my life, the organization of corporations and as an officer in corporations, and I have found there that the man with a military training was simply the ideal man; that he would play all around the fellow who prob ably had a much better academic and technical training, because he had learned to obey and to do what he was told. I believe today that one of the most disastrous things which could come to the institution which I represent, certainly, would be the abandonment of the military policy. DEAN TALIAFERRO.-I agree with Dean Randolph concerning the value of military training. I have had seven years of it and know something about it. I believe, however, that in the land grant college a man can obtain, if he is properly trained in military affairs, the necessary training as a soldier and as an officer without carrying military control into the barracks or the dormitory. My contention sifts right down to this: I do not believe in a military system in any institution unless it is carried out on the basis of West Point or Annapolis, or, if you will permit me to say it as an alumnus of that institution, the Virginia Military Institute. I think that in general, conditions in the land grant colleges preclude the establishment of discipline on this basis, and I further believe that, with so many other activities, military discipline becomes a disturbing factor in these institutions. Such has been my observation, and I have been in several land grant institutions. I was commandant of one of them for a year. I had charge of a battalion of more than three hundred students. Further the course of instruction was carried out without there having been provided any means of punishment for infractions of military regulations. The latter condition was unique, I believe. DEAN MARSTON.-I agree with Major Dapray that not a fair share of the appropriations by the government are being expended in connection with our military work. I think, however, that the statistics he quoted as to the proportion devoted to agricultural and engineering are misleading. It happens that the Secretary of the Interior has required that the reports of the treasurers of these institutions be made to him, under certain schedules, one of which is called "agriculture" and another "mechanic arts." There are four other schedules, including natural and physical science, the English language and economic scienceand another which I do not recall. The sums which are being expended under these heads, however, are mainly for instruction to students in agriculture and the mechanic arts. DEAN SPENCE. I would like to ask Dean Orton a question. If, in the consideration of the assignment of more officers to these schools, he also considered the question of the rank of the officers being assigned? Texas feels that it would be better off if we could get officers of higher rank than the second lieutenants. We feel that we have been fortunate in those that we have had in the last two or three years, but we think we would be better off if we could get them of higher rank. Is that question being considered at all? DEAN ORTON. - The matter has not been considered, so far as I know. At least I myself have not brought it to the attention of the executive committee at all. I think the thing that we want to ask for and want to look out for is that a step forward is taken and that the importance of military teaching is recognized, and that it be considered as an actual part of the educational work of our courses; that it is not a thing apart-it is a part of the education of the young men who go there and we want it because it is an education. We are not supposed to be looking at this from the standpoint so much of the military preparedness of the country; we are charged with educational interests, and we should be looking at it as a factor of education. I am very sincere in so regarding it. If we attempt to hedge about the appointments of these men with any restrictions, or anything of that sort, we would complicate the problem, perhaps, for the War Department. I can well conceive that it would be better to have a captain than a second lieutenant, or a major than a captain, perhaps, but I think that we would have to take what the War Department finds itself able to give; because, of the total number of officers in our army, which is not large, the proportion which is available for instruction work is quite a small proportion. They have considerable difficulty in getting sufficient men to teach even in West Point, the kind of men they want. There is always some difficulty in keeping the corps of men in West Point full. I have read that in the report of the superintendent at West Point. DEAN SPENCE. Then would it not be better to get them to remove that restriction that they will not appoint an officer above the rank of second lieutenant for instruction work? Instead of hedging them about, as you say, I think we should broaden it out. We do not object to the second lieutenant if the War Department does not tie itself down to saying that that is the only rank they can send; that that is their rule although they may have available captains, that they can not send them to us. DEAN TALIAFERRO.-I would like to ask Major Dapray if second lieutenants are allowed to be detailed. I thought it was first lieutenants or above only who were allowed to be detailed. MAJOR DAPRAY. The question of detail is rather complicated now, in view of the recent act of Congress, what they call in the army the "Manchurian Order." The officer is placed upon honor to state the amount of time he has been absent from his proper corps. If he stays away from his proper arm of the service, regiment or battalion, he loses his pay, if he has overstepped the limit; and if he has received his pay, the loss falls upon the higher authorities, ultimately upon the Secretary of War. So that, to make the officers entirely responsible in the matter, it has been the duty of the officer himself to make a report as to the time he was absent. The Manchurian order, as they call it, is a mandate that can not be avoided. You must send the officer back when his time is up. There is also a rule under which officers must spend so many years in the Philippines, and when a man is up for the Philippines, he must be sent there. That is true with the exception of retired officers. It is not possible, always, to send a captain. If you ask for a man, the War Department will say to you: "If you wish a captain, you must wait, and go without an officer." If you leave it to the War Department, they will send you a competent man, who may be of the rank of first or second lieutenant, but he must have been five years in the service. Before that time he can not be detailed away from his regiment. DEAN SPENCE. I do not seem to have made myself clear. We have just been through such conditions as the Major speaks of. We lost a lieutenant a year ago simply because he had to go back to his regiment under that four year rule. We have lost another one within the last two months in the same way, after just serving one year with us. But in the last three appointments that have been made |