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the interesting statement he has made. Is there any further discussion of the matter of military instruction?

DEAN TALIAFERRO.-One thought occurred to me in connection with two officers being detailed to any institution. I presume that, without knowing exactly what the conditions are, the probability is that one man would be detailed as what we call commandant of cadets, to take care of the general military work, and these other men probably in connection with engineering work or the demand for military engineering. I should think that would be the proper basis of their assignment. He might, of course, assist the commandant in his work.

Right there, however, a difficulty will arise. I happened to be associated with an institution at one time-it was a military school; I was raised in one-in which there was an officer detailed by the War Department for certain purposes. He was not acting as commandant, but he helped the commandant in certain relations. Not long after that another officer was detailed as commandant. Before this time there had been a civilian commandant. Immediately a hitch arose. The gentleman who was first detailed happened to rank the commandant, and therefore he could not serve under him; and it required a good deal of diplomacy to get matters adjusted. The place of which I speak was the Virginia Military Institute. The first man was detailed as an instructor in gunnery. He was an artilleryman. The other was á cavalry officer detailed as commandant of cadets.

It seems to me that if we are going to have a man as commandant and have other officers, one of two things has to be done. Either the other gentlemen who are detailed to this institution must be lower in rank, or in numbers, if of the same rank as the commandant if they are to serve under him, or they must be detailed and serve under no one but the president of the college, or possibly serve with the school of engineering. I do not know whether that has been thought of at all, Dean Orton, but it is a matter that has created trouble before, and I thought I would mention it.

I, naturally, am thoroughly in sympathy with the drill being carried out in the proper manner in so far as it is ordered. I believe that men should be suspended if they do not carry out their military work properly. I do not believe, however, in attempting to make the land grant college a military school. I do not believe that that is the place for a military school.

CHAIRMAN TYLER.-Is there any further discussion.

DEAN RANDOLPH.-I am sorry to have to disagree with the gentleman who has just spoken.

The institution with which I am connected is a military school. About the only thing it has not equal to the others, or as strict as the others, is guard duty. My reasons for the strong opinion that I have in favor of vigorous military policy is suggested in what Major Dapray said of the value of organization.

I have in mind a young man of twenty-six or twenty-seven who was made superintendent of motive power of a railroad and had under him some five hundred to a thousand men. The receiver of the road told him that his greatest recommendation was that he was a Virginia Military Institute man, and had been well trained. This man was a graduate of one of the best schools of mechanical engineering in the country, had years of experience in the shop, and yet to that receiver the best recommendation was that he had had a vigorous military training.

I have had a good deal to do with organization in my life, the

organization of corporations and as an officer in corporations, and I have found there that the man with a military training was simply the ideal man; that he would play all around the fellow who prob ably had a much better academic and technical training, because he had learned to obey and to do what he was told. I believe today that one of the most disastrous things which could come to the institution which I represent, certainly, would be the abandonment of the military policy.

DEAN TALIAFERRO.-I agree with Dean Randolph concerning the value of military training. I have had seven years of it and know something about it. I believe, however, that in the land grant college a man can obtain, if he is properly trained in military affairs, the necessary training as a soldier and as an officer without carrying military control into the barracks or the dormitory.

My contention sifts right down to this: I do not believe in a military system in any institution unless it is carried out on the basis of West Point or Annapolis, or, if you will permit me to say it as an alumnus of that institution, the Virginia Military Institute. I think that in general, conditions in the land grant colleges preclude the establishment of discipline on this basis, and I further believe that, with so many other activities, military discipline becomes a disturbing factor in these institutions. Such has been my observation, and I have been in several land grant institutions. I was commandant of one of them for a year. I had charge of a battalion of more than three hundred students.

Further the course of instruction was carried out without there having been provided any means of punishment for infractions of military regulations. The latter condition was unique, I believe.

DEAN MARSTON.-I agree with Major Dapray that not a fair share of the appropriations by the government are being expended in connection with our military work. I think, however, that the statistics he quoted as to the proportion devoted to agricultural and engineering are misleading.

It happens that the Secretary of the Interior has required that the reports of the treasurers of these institutions be made to him, under certain schedules, one of which is called "agriculture" and another "mechanic arts." There are four other schedules, including natural and physical science, the English language and economic scienceand another which I do not recall.

The sums which are being expended under these heads, however, are mainly for instruction to students in agriculture and the mechanic arts.

DEAN SPENCE.-I would like to ask Dean Orton a question. If, in the consideration of the assignment of more officers to these schools, he also considered the question of the rank of the officers being assigned?

Texas feels that it would be better off if we could get officers of higher rank than the second lieutenants. We feel that we have been fortunate in those that we have had in the last two or three years, but we think we would be better off if we could get them of higher rank. Is that question being considered at all?

DEAN ORTON.-The matter has not been considered, so far as I know. At least I myself have not brought it to the attention of the executive committee at all. I think the thing that we want to ask for and want to look out for is that a step forward is taken and that the importance of military teaching is recognized, and that it be considered as an actual part of the educational work of our courses; that it is not a thing apart-it is a part of the education of

the young men who go there and we want it because it is an education. We are not supposed to be looking at this from the standpoint so much of the military preparedness of the country; we are charged with educational interests, and we should be looking at it as a factor of education. I am very sincere in so regarding it.

If we attempt to hedge about the appointments of these men with any restrictions, or anything of that sort, we would complicate the problem, perhaps, for the War Department. I can well conceive that it would be better to have a captain than a second lieutenant, or a major than a captain, perhaps, but I think that we would have to take what the War Department finds itself able to give; because, of the total number of officers in our army, which is not large, the proportion which is available for instruction work is quite a small proportion. They have considerable difficulty in getting sufficient men to teach even in West Point, the kind of men they want. There is always some difficulty in keeping the corps of men in West Point full. I have read that in the report of the superintendent at West Point.

DEAN SPENCE.-Then would it not be better to get them to remove that restriction that they will not appoint an officer above the rank of second lieutenant for instruction work? Instead of hedging them about, as you say, I think we should broaden it out. We do not object to the second lieutenant if the War Department does not tie itself down to saying that that is the only rank they can send; that that is their rule-although they may have available captains, that they can not send them to us.

DEAN TALIAFERRO.-I Would like to ask Major Dapray if second lieutenants are allowed to be detailed. I thought it was first lieutenants or above only who were allowed to be detailed.

MAJOR DAPRAY.-The question of detail is rather complicated now, in view of the recent act of Congress, what they call in the army the "Manchurian Order." The officer is placed upon honor to state the amount of time he has been absent from his proper corps. If he stays away from his proper arm of the service, regiment or battalion, he loses his pay, if he has overstepped the limit; and if he has received his pay, the loss falls upon the higher authorities, ultimately upon the Secretary of War. So that, to make the officers entirely responsible in the matter, it has been the duty of the officer himself to make a report as to the time he was absent. The Manchurian order, as they call it, is a mandate that can not be avoided. You must send the officer back when his time is up.

There is also a rule under which officers must spend so many years in the Philippines, and when a man is up for the Philippines, he must be sent there. That is true with the exception of retired officers.

It is not possible, always, to send a captain. If you ask for a man, the War Department will say to you: "If you wish a captain, you must wait, and go without an officer." If you leave it to the War Department, they will send you a competent man, who may be of the rank of first or second lieutenant, but he must have been five years in the service. Before that time he can not be detailed away from his regiment.

DEAN SPENCE.-I do not seem to have made myself clear. We have just been through such conditions as the Major speaks of. We lost a lieutenant a year ago simply because he had to go back to his regiment under that four year rule. We have lost another one within the last two months in the same way, after just serving one year with us. But in the last three appointments that have been made

for Texas we have been notified by the War Department that they have adopted the rule-whether it is the law or not I do not knowthat nobody above the rank of second lieutenant will hereafter be assigned to these schools.

PRESIDENT DEMAREST.-Captain Schindel is here. He has been busy more or less with inspecting military work among the colleges, and I think it would be interesting to have some remarks from him on this point.

CAPTAIN J. S. SCHINDEL, (U. S. A.).—In reference to what Dean Spence has just said about the rank of officers sent to the colleges, I would like to say that the War Department has had much difficulty in getting suitable officers who were not hedged around with the limitations described by Major Dapray. I will say this, however, that a recommendation has been made, and has been approved and will be carried out by the orders of the Secretary of War as soon as field officers are available, viz., that to all schools and colleges having a battalion or regiment and where the number of students is over six hundred, a field officer will be detailed. We adopted this rule in the case of the University of Illinois, and year before last we sent Major Webster to that institution. We have endeavored to always select a field officer for such details, but each time we have been told by the War Department that it has been impossible to send the field officer who was picked out, and, in many cases, whom the university has asked for.

So that due to conditions existing throughout the army as to detached service, it is very difficult to meet the call for officers for this detail, and besides this we have to be very careful in making the selections. For the last two years it has been done entirely by the College Inspection Board. When a name comes up before the board, a man's record is sent for, and of course, I suppose mistakes have been made, but we have endeavored to give the best material which it is possible to get for that purpose.

DEAN SPENCE.-Is there not a rule that prohibits your sending out anybody above the rank of second lieutenant?

CAPTAIN SCHINDEL.-I do not know of any such rule, but any such detail must have been due to the fact that they were unable to get somebody of higher rank. Of course, I remember the discussion, and of course what you say is undoubtedly true. We do not know, in our committee, that such is the case, because we have invariably attempted to pick a field officer where we could get a battalion of over six hundred men.

CHAIRMAN TYLER.-Will you pass, gentlemen, to the consideration of other topics, or may we hear from the committee which has just been attending the other section? Will Dean Marston or President Demarest make any report in relation to the action of the other association?

DEAN MARSTON.-It has been understood in an informal way that President Demarest has been representing the interests of the Land Grant College Engineering Association in the other association, and I would suggest that President Demarest make the report.

PRESIDENT DEMAREST.-You are aware, I think, of the procedure that was undertaken to bring about the relation between this association and the general association of the state colleges, also in session.

As I remarked last year, here and in the other association, it seemed to me that we were already members, as members of the engineering departments of these colleges, of that association, with certain existing rights, but it did seem to some that a situation had

arisen out of the passing of the years and the lines of life and work which had been pursued by the other association, and also perhaps from an attitude of mind on the part of engineers, which made some specific new action necessary. Therefore amendments were proposed last year in the other association which provided that a section of the engineering or mechanic arts should be established in that association, as there are now sections there of experiment stations, extension work and college work and administration.

Those amendments went over until this year, and were taken up last night, and there was no quorum present when the discussion took place, and no action could be taken.

There seemed to be in the minds of many, however, the idea that these amendments were not necessary-the idea which had been in the minds of some of us from the beginning, that we, as engineers, as the executives of the engineering departments were already members there, and that any distinct program of our own was provided for by the section in the constitution of that association, which says that the section on college work and administration, or any of the sections, may make such divisions as they please.

The meeting continued until some length last night, and adjourned without action because there was no quorum, and also because there could possibly have been no action had there been a quorum.

Discussion took place afterwards which seemed to clear the air a good deal, and Director Curtis, of Iowa, with others, was ready this morning to propose action, and did propose action, and it was unanimously carried in that association, which I think accomplishes just what we wish, and accomplishes it in the best way, in the way, I am sure, which most approves itself to me, for I had undertaken the other procedure in your behalf and pressed it because it seemed to me rather necessary.

In the new light, and in the new proposition, by men representing particularly the agricultural side of things, that those amendments proved unnecessary, we are back on our old ground.

The action taken, then, was that the section on college work and administration of the association of colleges there in session be requested to establish a division of engineering or mechanic arts, and to arrange a program as may seem proper. Then a resolution was offered and passed, that the whole matter of the constitution of the association and any possible changes for a wiser arrangement of sections, and the rest, be referred to the executive committee for report next year. But the matter is now in this shape: That we are recognized under the existing constitution as a part of that association, and that arrangement for our program will be made, naturally, by the chairman and program committee of the section on college work and administration. No doubt they will make a program of engineering, and make a program in agricultural subjects, and it will simply be necessary for our executive committee, or other committee, to be in touch with the committee there until the matter comes through its initial period, and next year we will know just what further procedure to take.

I feel, therefore, that I can report that the matter is accomplished, and in the very best way possible, and that we are recognized under the existing association's constitution, which is the thing that I have wanted to see.

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DEAN MARSTON. I would like to read into our minutes the resolution which was adopted unanimously this morning, by the A. A. A. C. E. S., without a single dissenting vote:

"Moved, that the section on college work and administration be

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