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problems in anybody's mind who is trying to run a railroad as to whether they can make it operate profitably.

Now, I would ask a couple of questions here. Have the authorities in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New York, and Connecticut tried to get together to put into effect one operating authority in the four States for operation of this service!

Senator RIBICOFF. My understanding is that yes, the Governors of the four States met. I haven't a report, nor have I seen any newspaper accounts of what was achieved.

I would say there are a couple of problems and I would be less than frank if I did not recognize them and say so to the committee.

You have two basic problems on the New Haven Railroad. First, you have the commuter problem which encompasses one section in Connecticut, Fairfield County, and another section in New York, Westchester County. The commuters, 25,000 people from Connecticut and New York, every morning travel into New York City and every night travel back. This is one of the biggest burdens and is where the greatest loss has taken place.

Now, you have a second problem—the problem of carrying the passenger who might want to take the train from New York City to New Haven, to Hartford, to Providence, to Boston—the longer haul.

Of course, you also have the commuter problem between Boston and Providence. However, many fewer people use the railroad on a commuter basis between Providence and Boston than at the New York end. So the burden isn't as great, concerning commuters, on the States of Rhode Island and Massachusetts as it is on the States of Connecticut and New York.

Senator DOMINICK. I understand that. But it seems to me that this is simply an allocation of the division of responsibility between them.

Senator RIBICOFF. Senator Pell's bill seeks to set up authorization for a four-State regional authority and I am a cosponsor of this bill. The only problem that I see--and this is why S. 325 was introducedis that Senator Pell's bill will not solve the short-range problem. By the time the four States get together, by the time the four legislatures act, by the time the Congress acts, there may be no New Haven Railroad left.

So, S. 325 is a short-range proposal to preserve the New Haven, while the Pell proposal, and what you are questioning, Senator Dominick, comes into being. But I under the exigencies of the day, after the statement of the chairman, Senator Pastore, after these hearings are over, I feel the four States will get together.

Now, the question is raised, What is the Federal responsibility? I happen to think there is a Federal role. I happen to think there is a Federal responsibility because railroads are important to the life of this country.

Senator DOMINICK. That was on a nationwide basis, not just for one railroad.

Senator RIBICOFF. Right, but my bill does not apply to one railroad. And at this point, Mr. Chairman, I would like to put in the record the listing of the 66 railroads showing the losses from passenger commuter service, to indicate that this is a nationwide problem. The

bill that I propose would allow the ICC, on an emergency basis, to give help while a program was being set up on a regional basis.

The proposal that I have, and the testimony that I have given, indicates that on a matching basis, the ICC would be authorized to give some $6 million to take care of the immediate passenger loss of the New Haven Railroad in order to keep it going while the permanent solution, such as the Pell bill and the State authorities come in to take over.

Senator PASTORE. Without objection, the document that was suggested by the Senator from Connecticut will be included in the record.

(The document follows:)

TABLE 1.--Class I line-haul railroads conducting passenger service by districts and individual roads, year 1963

[In thousands)

[blocks in formation]

7, 763, 144 2,990, 416 7, 743, 134

134, 636
17, 647
42, 797

84, 700
11, 013
18, 809

219, 336
28, 660
61, 606

$508, 450
178, 424
419, 341

$304, 306

87, 479
196, 053

$104, 695

99, 801
194, 663
399, 160

$772
226, 457
380, 68

18, 496, 694

195, 080

114, 522

309, 603

1, 106, 215

587, 838

607, 910

342, 803

[blocks in formation]

10, 564
155, 359
13, 399
61, 715
29, 726
401, 984

60, 020
1, 713, 957

262

7,672
1,342, 832

11, 500

434
53, 622

2, 414

54
2, 251

143
268

179
3, 329

270
17, 891

3

47
9, 527

63

7, 119

54
6, 535

143
268

179
14, 829

704
71, 513

3

47
26, 424

63

8,825

694
8, 636
1, 045
4, 323

1,542
28, 344

3, 948
64, 385

632

732
119, 411
1, 580

314
55, 833

67
164,938

833

197
9, 117
1,300
7,634

5, 008

419
5, 325

535
1, 763
1, 150
14, 270

2, 344
62, 424

11

306
56, 266

609

2, 159

722
5, 008

375
692

869
9, 751
3,547
23, 127

300

582
14, 265
2,043

2 39
8, 587

326
33, 867
2, 034

676
5,760
1,036
3, 407

16,897

16, 098

i 930
2, 101

3,062
117, 115
17,760

666

629
1, 221
7, 040
10, 480

1 16
112, 264

1 440
9, 159
14,881
11, 621
16, 486

1 643
8,062

6, 592 167, 074

Revenue passenger

miles

Districts and railroads

Eastern district.
Southern district.
Western district

Total, United States.
Eastern district:

Baltimore & Ohio RR
Bangor & Aroostook RR
Boston & Maine RR
Canadian Pacific Lines in Maine
Central RR. Co., of New Jersey
Central Vermont Ry., Inc.
Chicago & Eastern Illinois RR.
Delaware & Hudson RR
Erie-Lackawanna RR.
Grand Trunk Western RR.
Long Island RR.
Maine Central RR.
Monon RR.
New York Central RR
New York, Chicago & St. Louis RR
New York Connecting RR
New York, New Haven & Hartford RR.
New York, Susquehanna & Western RR.
Pennsylvania RR.
Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines
Pittsburgh & Lake Erie RR.
Reading
Staten Island Rapid Transit Ry.

Wabash RR.
Southern district:

Alabama Great Southern RR
Atlanta & West Point RR.
Atlantic Coast Line RR.
Central of Georgia Ry.

140, 244

13, 866

1,066, 068

1, 948
2,053, 086

22, 820

43, 595
107, 558

13, 926

71
18, 938

449

212
5, 677
3,237

178

11,955

30
25, 716

221

42
5, 724
2,805

467

25, 881

101
44, 654

670

254
11, 400
6, 042

645

41, 137

42
90, 322

599

185
5,772
1, 290
3, 203

[blocks in formation]
[blocks in formation]

138, 801
27, 159
11, 379

6, 165
10, 395
90, 607
827, 619
258, 818
14, 213
61, 909
149, 726
509, 334
302, 202

50

137

128
17, 491

15

669
109
36
49
50
456
3, 312
888

98
335
1, 406

919
1, 006

1
(1)

678
109
36
49
50

584
20, 803

904

98 335

12, 781 3, 273

634
1, 032
1, 296
5, 538
34, 491
19, 821

1, 130
+7, 105

7,928
26, 820
25, 987

6
509

5, 556

797
371
182

311
2, 548
22, 224
7, 451

416
2, 136
4, 488
14, 657
9, 148

6
216

[blocks in formation]

1, 175
2,021
13, 898
14,567
1, 008
5, 826
2,928
9, 544
16, 326

3
254

4

1, 410

1,006

1
(4)

68, 032

3, 745
16, 451
33, 039

204
85

[ocr errors][merged small][merged small]
[blocks in formation]

1,617, 038

545, 279
800, 725

2, 156
476, 704
531, 996

27, 367
111, 292

54, 727
411, 971
47, 463
21, 372
25, 957
326, 692
322, 269

443
61, 992

24, 197
1,001, 589

41, 693
117, 363
1,068, 517

104, 332

2, 317

931
3, 322

10
1, 520
2, 492

117
531

202
1, 026
177
97
79
958
661

7
242

98
1, 978

138

426
1, 345

133

2, 370
20, 528
10, 843

10
6, 453
7, 544

117
531

202
1, 026
177
97
79
958
661

7
242

98
7, 619

138

426 1, 345

133

87, 442
20, 186
41, 165

908
27, 452
29, 427
2, 290
4, 768
3, 237
20, 949
2, 732
1, 049
3, 302
24, 718
14, 485

29
7, 310
3,023
53, 571
2, 120
8, 924
57, 378
2, 875

39, 584
17, 436
20, 678

57
12,683
14, 452

719
2,881
1, 372
9, 638
1, 040

500

640
8, 747
6, 461

14
1,770

620
25, 477
1, 010
3, 060
24, 920
2, 294

32, 927

4, 507
15, 553

428
12, 726
14, 879

969
5, 143
1,816
14, 107
2, 348

929
2, 840
10, 005
13, 952

49
6, 681
3, 148
17, 087
1, 755
3, 827
26, 774
2, 213

29, 274
7, 069
3, 924

16
18, 783
24, 592

766
5, 675
4,096
67, 053
2, 197
4, 464
84, 222
7, 740

5, 640

(9)

Chesapeake & Ohio Ry.
Cincinnati, New Orleans & Texas Pacific Ry.
Florida East Coast Ry.
Georgia R.R.-Lessee organization
Georgia Southern & Florida Ry.
Gulf, Mobile & Ohio RR..
Illinois Central RR.
Louisville & Nashville RR
New Orleans & Northeastern RR.
Norfolk & Western Ry.
Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac RR
Seaboard Air Line RR
Southern Ry
Tennessee Central Ry.

Western Ry. of Alabama.
Western district:
Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Ry., and alliliated com-

panies.
Chicago & North Western Ry
Chicago, Burlington & Quincy RR
Chicago Great Western Řy.
Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul & Pacific RR
Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific RR
Colorado & Southern Ry.
Denver & Rio Grande Western RR
Fort Worth & Denver Ry-
Great Northern Ry
Kansas City Southern Ry
Louisiana & Arkansas Ry
Missouri-Kansas-Texas RR (Del.).
Missouri Pacific RR.
Northern Pacific Ry
Northwestern Pacific RR.
St. Louis-San Francisco Ry
Soo Line Railroad Co.,
Southern Pacific.
Spokane, Portland & Seattle Ry
Texas & Pacific Ry
Union Pacific RR
Western Pacific RR.

1 Deficit.
? Reverse item,

Net income transferred to ACL-L. & N., lessees. 4 Included in Atlanta & West Point RR Co, report.

NOTE.-Totals do not necessarily add up due to rounding.

Source: Quarterly reports, OS-D, 4th quarter 1963, “Transport Statistics in the United
States,” part 1, year 1963, Bureau of Transport Economics and Statistics, Interstate
Commerce Commission.

Senator PASTORE. May I ask a question on the point that was raised by Mr. Dominick? Does your bill provide for grant of money for operating purposes? I understood that your bill was merely for the purpose of new equipment, for the repair of old equipment, and for the repair of roadbeds? Is that correct?

Senator RIBICOFF. It does both. It is designed to aid the New Haven road in such a way as we work out the formula to give them enough money to operate the railroad through the formula. I could read

Senator PASTORE. It could be used for operating purposes?

Senator RIBICOFF. It could. That is in section 604. Section 605 is a provision for new equipment.

Senator PASTORE. Read that 604.
Senator RIBICOFF. I will try to explain how the formula works.

The maximum amount of financial aid available is determined under a three-part formula. The total Federal grant under 604 may not exceed the total of (1) the railroad's expenses for maintenance of right-of-way and structures directly related to passenger service-including passenger station upkeep and maintenance of rail lines used only by passenger trains.

(The New Haven's expenses in this category in 1964 were $2.5 million, according to figures I received from the New Haven's accounting office.)

Plus (2) direct State aid-appropriated funds for maintenance of way and structure directly related to passenger service. The Connecticut annual payment of $500,000 for maintenance of grade crossings and bridges falls in this category. Not all of the Connecticut payment would qualify. Some of its goes to maintain structures and crossings used by freight, but the ICC believes some of the $500,000 would qualify.

Plus (3) that part of the railroad's expenses for maintenance of way and structure assignable but not directly related to passenger service, which is equal to the amount of State assistance. The New Haven's expenses for way and structure maintenance assignable, but not directly related to passenger service, were $1.3 million in 1964. These would have included maintenance of lines and buildings used by both freight and passenger service. Under an ICC formula, part of the expense is charged to freight, part to passenger.

The bill here under (3) provides a subceiling, limiting the maximum amount of Federal aid to an amount matching the assistance of States and political subdivisions. The New Haven received $3.6 million of such aid from the States in 1964, all in the form of tax relief. Thus, $3.6 million is all the Federal aid it could qualify under subsection (3).

Now, if the States had given $5 million, or any amount of $1.3 million or more in tax relief and assistance, the New Haven would qualify for all $1.3 million—the amount of its expenses assignable but not directly related to passenger service. Thus, the total of section 604 formula aid would be $2.5 million under (1), some part of $500,000 under (2), and $3.6 million under (3), or a total of $6.1 million-plus.

Now, this isn't a mandatory amount. This is the maximum. The ICC would have the right to go into the railroad to look at the problem and make its own determination as to what portion up to the maximum of $6.1 million it deems necessary to save the railroad. The

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