JAN. 14, 1829.]

Distribution of the Revenue.

[SENATE.

fence of the country, would be confided to the General it should have any effect beyond this, it could only be to leGovernment; but then there would be a restraint imposed vy taxes upon the great body of the consumers of the counupon Congress, which will never permit the public money try, in order to pay them back again, with this additional to be appropriated for the benefit of one State in prefer- injustice, that what is to be levied on some people, and ence to another. Each Member of Congress will be watch-on certain sections of the country, would be paid to other ed over by his constituents, and it will be his interest, as well persons, and different sections. Such was the end to be as that of the State he represents, to keep up the fund attained by this bill. The system of high duties was to be for distribution as high as possible. Mr. D. further observ-kept up forever, when it was known to bear most unequaled, that the bill provided for the distribution of no spe-ly on the different parts of the Union. The States were cific sum among the States; it merely proposed, if the to be bribed to perpetuate this injustice. Mr. H., in conmoney was in the Treasury, and could not be applied to clusion, said he would not even anticipate, much less dwell the extinguishment of the public debt, that it should be upon, the consequences of perverting the powers of the distributed; and concluded by saying, that, as he was not Federal Government to the purpose of levying taxes for very anxious that the second section should be retained, he the States; of raising vast sums of money by the most unhad no objection to its being expunged. equal of all modes of taxation, in order to distribute the same among the States in a ratio wholly different from that in which it was paid. He would content himself at present with merely calling for the yeas and nays on his motion.

Mr. HAYNE said, as the gentleman from New Jersey was not strenuous about the adoption of the second section of the bill, he should not again go into an argument against it. But the gentleman was under a strange misapprehension as to the provisions of his own bill. He said yesterday, and he repeated to-day, that the bill only provided that there should be distributed among the States the funds that could not be applied to the payment of the debt, and remaining in the Treasury unappropriated. Now, said Mr. H., it will be seen that the first section expressly provides that there shall be unconditionally taken from the Sinking Fund the sum of five millions of dollars, annually, to be divided among the States, and that only five millions (if so much remain in the Treasury) shall be applied to the Sinking Fund. He did consider the Sinking Fund as of a sacred character. It was set apart and appropriated to the discharge of the public debt. He was rejoiced that the gentleman from New Jersey had brought up this subject so early, because it would be a means of attracting the public attention to it, and public opinion would be known. It was well known that there was a party in this country who was opposed to having the public debt redeemed, and who were contriving all the means in their power to perpetuate it. He believed that it was a darling object with some people to have the debt forever unpaid. He hoped that, by a decisive vote of the Senate, they would strike out the second section of this bill, and thus solemnly settle the point, not to touch the Sinking Fund. The gentleman from New Jersey had accused him of using hard terms. He certainly intended no disrespect to the Senator from New Jersey. He had called the bill what he believed it to be. Could it be supposed, either here or any where else, that the idea of imposing taxes, merely with a view to give the money back again to the people, (and the bill proposed to do nothing more,) could be tolerated? The gentleman had now admitted that this would be the only effect. He [Mr. DICKERSON] perhaps did not intend to make such a declaration, but he had, in debate, that morning, substantially admitted that such was the fact. The gentleman had distinctly admitted that, even if this bill should pass, Congress would still go on, as usual, making special appropriations for what he is pleased to call "great national improvements." Had Congress (Mr. H. would ask) ever appropriated money for works admitted to be of a different character? Had they ever voted money for improvements confessedly of a local character? Had not every work, from the greatest to the least, been called a great national work? And so will it ever be. It appears, therefore, that, after the passage of this bill, every thing is to go on just as before. The distracting question of Internal Improvements is to remain unsettled. We are still to witness the disgraceful scramble which the gentleman has so forcibly described; and then, if any fund should be left undisposed of, it is to be distributed among the States. Mr. H. beleved the practical effect of the bill would be to postpone indefinitely the payment of the national debt, by taking from the Sinking Fund five millions of dollars a year. If

[The yeas and nays were ordered accordingly.] Mr. DICKERSON was quite pleased that the yeas and nays should be taken on the question, and he thought, from appearances, the decision would be by an unanimous vote. Gentlemen, it seemed to him, had misapprehended the second section of the bill. It was true, that it provided for an application of a portion of the Sinking Fund; but he had stated yesterday, that he had no great partiality for this section, and was perfectly willing that it should be stricken out. All that Mr. D. wished to retain of the second section was, a provision to place into the fund for distribution, all the public money that could not be applied to the payment of the public debt; because, the money thus going into the Sinking Fund, could not be considered as unappropriated, and must, therefore, remain locked up in the vaults of the Treasury. The gentleman from South Carolina said, that every object of Internal Improvement, for which the funds of the General Government had been appropriated, was a great national concern. [Here Mr. HAYNE said, "so called."] Then, said Mr. D., called a great national concern. Now, he did not consider the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal, the Delaware and Chesapeake Canal, the Louisville Canal, and Dismal Swamp Canal, to be objects of great national concern; these were rather the peculiar concerns of the States which were alone interested. But breakwaters, and works of that nature, connected with commerce and navigation, Mr. D. considered as objects of great national concern, and properly belonged to the exclusive prerogative of the General Government. Mr. D. was confident, that Congress could draw the distinction between objects of great national importance, and objects belonging exclusively to the States; that Internal Improvements within the States should be left to the care of the States; while breakwaters, improvements of harbors, &c., would appropriately come under the consideration of Congress. Mr. D. again observed, that the appropriating a fund for distribution to the States, would lead to economy in the expenditures of the Government; in these, every member of Congress would look to the interests of his constituents, and would find it his interest, as well as duty, to aid in keeping up the fund for distribution, as high as the general good permitted.

Mr. JOHNSTON, of Louisiana, was opposed to the second section of the bill, or any proposition to divert any portion of the sum now appropriated to the payment of the public debt, to any other object. The second section proposes to take five millions of the ten annually set apart for the payment of the interest and capital of the national debt, to be distributed among the States. The present debt is fifty-one millions, and the interest about two millions and a half; so that about half of the remaining five millions will be absorbed in the interest; which will leave a sum of two and a half millions, (increasing as the capi

tal is paid) to extinguish the debt, which will require fifteen or sixteen years. He was opposed to violating the fund of ten millions, or to the postponement of the payment of the debt. Certainly, for two years, while we had a large debt at six per cent. greatly above the market value of money, there was no motive, either of policy or of finance, to justify the postponement of the payment.

Mr. J. said, that, by the steady application of the ten millions, with the surplus revenue, we shall totally extinguish the debt in 1833, certainly in '34; without some unforeseen event. This was a most desirable object, and to which all parties looked with interest. He wished to be explicit on this point, from what had been alluded to in debate. He did not think there was any party in this country disposed to prolong the debt. He knew of no public man, or any public writer, who advocated such a policy; on the contrary, he believed it the most popular topic of the day. There may be, perhaps, some of the stockholders, large capitalists, who prefer a safe investment in the public stocks; but they are neither numerous nor influential, and have certainly used no means to direct public opinion on this subject; and while the Bank of the United States, and all the local Banks, discount at six, there can be no great interest in an investment at four and a half per centum, sufficient to create a party, in any sense of the word. Mr. J. said, in regard to this proposition, he would make the same reply he made to the gentleman from Missouri-it is premature. For two years we have had full employment for all our means; and he had no doubt we should be able to apply our surplus, in 1831, to the public debt; but it is time enough to provide for

that.

|

[JAN. 14, 1829.

lances are, every two years, carried to the surplus fund;
and, although Congress have the power to appropriate in-
definitely, and in anticipation of the revenue, yet there
are certainly limits, on which Congress should exercise a
sound discretion. The power rightfully to appropriate
for an unlimited time, and to commence at a distant pe-
riod, may well be questioned; for, although a future Con-
gress may repeal, yet the power to repeal is very differ-
ent, and may be much more difficult, than to enact a
new law.
He said, he doubted the propriety of adopting
prospective measure at this time, as much as the expe-
diency of it.

a

It

Mr. J. said he wished to make one remark upon the subject of Internal Improvements. There were very false opinions in the public mind in relation to this subject, which the debate here is well calculated to confirm. has been heretofore often said, that it was a system, that it was of vast extent, and would require hundreds of millions to execute. This does not come from the friends of National Improvement, but is urged by those who would create a prejudice in the public mind. He did not believe any such system was contemplated, by any eminent men, or by any party. There were men, and, he believed, a majority of both Houses of Congress, as well as of the States, and of the People, who honestly believed Congress had power to appropriate money for those objects; that they were of great public utility, and as essential to the connexion of the Union, and to the internal trade of the country, as other works were to the foreign commerce. They believed it of the highest concern to the well-being of the Government to facilitate the intercourse between the great geographical divisions, to which the powers and the means of the States were entirely inadequate. These embraced only a few great works; and they would, in most cases, be executed by private companies, requiring small additional aid from the Government. The canals along the coast are nearly completed. A canal and a railcommenced, and which will not require very great aid from Congress. The extension of the Cumberland Road through the Northwestern States is in progress, requiring small annual appropriations. To complete the 'system,” as it is called, of roads, will require a road from the capitol to the Lakes, and from the capitol to New Orleans; and a road through the capitals of Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi; the annual appropriations to which will not be large. Some subscriptions, from time to time, to the stock of some few canals, of a national character, will complete all that is at present contemplated. The whole system, carried to its greatest extent, will not require two millions a year, and that, perhaps, for no great length of time. The distribution of the surplus revenue among the States, if that should be resorted to, will effect every thing else which is desirable. It is not the intention of the friends of this measure to enter into any scramble for the public money, but to ask from Congress, from time to time, moderate and suitable appropriations to these objects. Mr. J. said, it was our first duty to pay the public debt, with such small and judicious applications to other objects, as we had been in the habit of making; then to reduce the duties, so as to relieve the people from all unnecessary burthens, so far as is consistent with the great interests of the country. There will still remain, in all probability, a considerable surplus, after providing for the National works, for distribution among the States.

Mr. J. said, when the public debt is paid, Congress will be called to the consideration of several highly interesting questions. The ordinary expenses of this Government will be reduced to less than nine millions. The question will then occur, how much, and on what articles, the duties may be repealed; and whether, after all the reduc-way, to connect the Atlantic with the Ohio, is already tions that can be made, there will not still be a considerable surplus revenue. To enable Congress to decide these questions, we want the experience of the effect and operation of this tariff upon the industry and the revenues of the country. One gentleman contends, we may take off ten millions-but still there would be a surplus: while another contends that we can make very little deduction from the revenue, and that we shall be obliged to draw this immense sum from the people. These are grave considerations, which require time, reflection, and experi

ence.

If we cannot liberate ourselves from a portion of the taxes, we must provide for a distribution of the fund among the States; there is no alternative. With regard to distributing the surplus of one or two years, after the payment of the public debt, rather than reduce the duties at once to the lowest point, if that was practicable, he did not mean now to commit himself. It was a subject upon which, whatever opinion he might entertain, he ought to consult his constituents. The internal improvement of the several States, as well as the education of the people, were very great and interesting objects. Many of the States had engaged already extensively in it, and contracted large debts. They might find a temporary application of this fund the most convenient mode of carrying their plans into effect. The State which he represented had also objects, of great public utility, in contemplation, for which it was difficult to provide the means. They may think it advisable, for one or two years, to avail themselves Mr. J. said, he had heard, in the course of the debate, of this distribution; and he was bound to consult them. to his great surprise, that the honor of paying off the debt Mr. J. said, he objected to acting on great questions, would be ascribed to the administration under which it to take effect at so distant a period as five years, which was to be completed. We have, said he, for twelve years, will more properly belong to those who come after us, and through two administrations, labored in this work, the and who will have better information. It seemed to him merit of which is greatly magnified. We have paid one to violate the spirit of the Government. We make annual hundred and forty millions, and now the honor of the appropriations for the expenses of Government; the ba-achievement is to go to swell the tide of popularity of the

man who shall happen to be President when the last dollar shall be paid. Where, said Mr. J., is the man who drew your Sinking Fund act? Where are those who devised the plans and levied the money? And where are those who have faithfully applied it? Sir, said he, this honor, whatever it may be, belongs to all those who, at any time, have had a part in it. Mr. J. said, there was a tendency here, as well as among the People, to ascribe all the merit of our legislation, and all the wisdom of our measures, to the Executive, and to concentrate all the honor and glory of the country upon what is called the administration; the effect of which is to degrade the Legislative branch of the Government.

Mr. J. said, before he concluded he would make a remark in reply to what fell from the gentleman from Missouri, relative to violating the British Sinking Fund. He seemed to consider that the present enormous amount of the British debt as attributable to diversions of the Sinking Fund. Mr. J. said, the British debt was to be ascribed to her long and expensive wars. Since the period to which he alluded, (1732) England had been engaged nearly half the time in war; during which, her expenses greatly exceeded her income. This excess constitutes her debt, and the Sinking Fund is inoperative-if the money is applied, it only extinguishes an old debt, while they are creating a new one, or pays off an old loan by contracting another. During the Revolutionary war, she increased her debt, in seven years, one hundred and thirty millions; at the beginning of this century her debt had increased to four hundred and fifty millions of pounds sterling, and now it is double that sum, after applying all her vast revenues. What could both of her Sinking Funds, amounting to seven millions a year, do with such a debt, so rapidly created? It is only in time of peace, when the expenses are reduced below the revenue, that funds can be applied effectually to the discharge of the debt. We have diminished our debt, because we had a | surplus of revenue. But, during a war, no nation expects to raise, by taxes, an amount equal to its expenses. The intervals of peace have been too short, and the accumulation of debt too great and too rapid, to free them from this load of debt. The true moral of which is, to teach us to avoid war, as the true cause of her debts.

[SENATE.

by a few more blows, instead of staying his hand, and let the monster go, to recover his strength, and come at him again, he would redouble his blows, and finish him while he could. We can pay our debt in four years. Let us do it, and astonish the world with the spectacle of a great nation without a national debt! Such a spectacle would make us more formidable to Europe than the exhibition of an hundred thousand men under arms, and an hundred ships of the line at sea. As to a party in the United States in favor of continuing the public debt, Mr. B. could not say there was a political party which could be so characterized; but he knew there were many in favor of it-large interests in favor of it; and he had himself heard a gentleman say, that he could not conceive of a greater calamity than the payment of the debt. Lord Castlereagh said the same thing in the British House of Commons, just before his death.

Mr. JOHNSTON, of Louisiana, said, the gentleman from Missouri yesterday occupied, for a considerable time, the attention of the Senate, on the danger of touching the Sinking Fund, which he attempted to illustrate by the example of England, where, he said, the debt had increased, in one century, from forty millions to nine hundred millions pounds sterling, by violating the Sinking Fund. He read, at some length, from speeches in the British Parliament, and seemed to attach much importance to that which he now considers unworthy of my notice. By the explanation which had just been given, he said he should find himself in an awkward dilemma, which must preclude him from noticing what might fall from him in debate. He deems it unworthy of me, said Mr. J. to reply to any errors of opinion, or of argument, because they are errors; and he could not answer what was sound in principle, or correct in inference, because they were unanswerable.

He thought he did not misunderstand the scope of the argument which the gentleman had used yesterday. He was discussing a bill to take five millions from the Sinking Fund. He read from the Parliamentary debates, on the same subject, to show the danger of touching the funds provided for the payment of the public debt. He said the debt in England had increased, since the time of Sir Robert Walpole, from less than fifty millions to the enor Mr. BENTON rose, to do what, he said, he had never mous and almost incalculable sum of nine hundred millions done before-to quit the debate and engage in an episode, pounds sterling; and he added, emphatically, "in conseof which the subject was of no more importance than the quence of not attending to the warning voice of her statesanswer to the question whether he himself had a modi- men." He said, this immense debt, and the evils brought cum, more or less, of political information on a particular upon the country, arose from the misapplication of the point. The Senator from Louisiana had undertaken to Sinking Fund. The end of the gentleman's argument correct him, somewhat at length, on a point of history. seemed to be, to warn us of the danger, by the example Gentlemen who undertook to correct others, should take he cites. Mr. J. said, while he agreed with the gentleman care that they themselves were right in the correction, in the inexpediency of diverting any portion of our funds and also in stating the error imputed to the other. Of to any other purpose, he believed the true moral which both these rules the Senator from Louisiana had been un- this country shall learn from the example of the British mindful. He had erred in attempting to repeat what he, debt was, to avoid her policy, which led to long expensive (Mr. B.) had said of the origin of the British National wars; to cultivate peace, friendship, and commerce, aDebt. That debt had its origin in the Revolution of 1688, broad; industry at home; and a wise and proper econoas we had learnt, when apprentices to the law, in Black- my in the Government. Mr. J. said, he had not objected stone. He (Mr. B.) had not treated the violation of the to the debate on this subject; on the contrary, he was Sinking Fund, by Sir Robert Walpole, as the sole cause glad to see the propositions discussed, and sent among the of the frightful amount of the British debt; he treated it | people, and for that reason he had taken part in it; but as the cause why the debt was not paid, under the long, he objected to the decision upon any of them now, beand peaceful, and timid administration of that minister. fore they can be understood by the people, and before there Subsequent wars ran it up to what it is--the war for the is any necessity for the action of the Government; and, Dutch barrier, for the Protestant succession, for the ba- he therefore said, the passage of these bills was prema. lance of Europe, the wars of the American and the ture. French Revolutions. Mr. B. had quoted a piece of history, to have the benefit of its warning example against the danger of delay in paying a public debt. Our debt was now small, and we could pay it in four years; instead of slackening payments, he would accelerate them. He would consider himself as engaged with a monster, a giant--and, getting the upper hand of him, and able to destroy him

Mr. KANE did not rise to discuss the bill. His only objuct was to give the Senator from New Jersey an opportunity to modify the bill, so as to render it more acceptable to the Senate. The course proposed by the Senator from South Carolina, (Mr. HAYNE) if his motion prevailed, he thought, would not do justice to the Senator from New Jersey. He was of opinion that the plan proposed in the

second section of the bill, for disposing of the revenue of the United States, was injudicious; and he should object to such a disposition being made of the revenue, until the period arrived when no other disposition could be made of it; yet he was disposed to give the Senator from New Jersey every opportunity to free his bill from those objections which had been made against it; and, for that purpose, he would move to lay it on the table.

The question being taken on the motion of Mr. K., it was negatived, by a large majority.

Mr. DICKERSON expressed his willingness to have consented to lay the bill on the table, if it had been desired by the Senate. They had thought proper, however, to negative the motion, and he was content.

Mr. WEBSTER said, he voted against laying the bill on the table; but his only object was, that he might have an opportunity to vote on the bill, especially after what had passed in debate during the morning. The gentleman from South Carolina had said there was a party in the country disposed to violate the Sinking Fund. He considered the Sinking Fund as sacred as the other gentleman did; but he knew of no party, or combination of individuals, for any such end or purpose. He had never heard of any such party, nor could he think that any such existed. He must be allowed to say, that, neither the remarks of the gentleman from New Jersey, nor the elaborate discussions of other gentlemen, had at all shaken his faith in the utility of the Sinking Fund. Too much, however, had been frequently attributed to the Sinking Fund. His own opinion had always been entirely in concurrence with that expressed by the gentleman from South Carolina, that the Sinking Fund should be held sacred as an appropriation, and that it should not be violated. He had voted against laying the bill on the table, for he was desirous of recording his vote in favor of striking out the second section. Upon any other part of the bill, he had not, at present, any thing to say.

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Mr. HAYNE said, that the gentleman from Massachusetts seemed to take exception to the term "party, which he had used. He knew not what meaning that gentleman might attach to the term. He certainly did not intend, in using it, to convey the idea that the persons alluded to belonged exclusively to any of the political parties of the country; but he did intend to express his belief that there were a number of persons in the United States-men of wealth, intelligence, and influence, toowho were wholly opposed to the extinction of the national debt. If it was necessary to designate those whom he meant, he would say that he meant all those who had an interest, direct or indirect, in preserving the system of high duties-who share, in any way, in the profits derived from those duties-the men who received, under that system, more than they paid. These were those to whom he had referred as "a party:" for, wherever they may be found, they are united by common views, and a bond of common interests. Mr. H. said he was glad to hear that the gentleman from Massachusetts concurred in the necessity of speedily extinguishing the national debt. He hoped that might be found to be the general opinion in the part of the country even where that gentleman resides.

[JAN. 14, 1829.

demption of the debt; they were those who had loaned money to the country, and who found in the Government a regular and solvent debtor; they were those wealthy citizens, who were disposed to loan money to the Government, and such as must have connexion with all Governments. But they belonged to no party," politically speaking, although there might be many of them.

66

Mr. BERRIEN rose and said, the second section of this bill has for its object to prolong the blessing of the national debt; to delay the return to the public creditors of that mass of capital, which is now vested in the Government securities, and which, when returned, must find employment somewhere-either in manufactures, which are said to be already overcharged; in commerce, which we know is enfettered by restrictions; or in agriculture, which is languishing under your repeated exactions. This project is to be permitted, with the assent of the mover, to go quietly to rest; and I will not disturb its repose, nor prolong the memory of its brief and fleeting existence. It was most natural, however, that such a proposition should have excited the discussion which it has produced; and, individually, I rejoice that it has taken place. It is understood now, that the progress of the Government, in the payment of the public debt, is not to be arrested; that the funds specifically set apart, (and, I trust, all the other resources of the Government which can be rendered applicable to it) is to be faithfully applied to its redemption; and I cannot avoid the expression of my gratification, at hearing these declarations from all the various quarters from which they have proceeded. I wish it accorded with the views of the Senator from New Jersey not to press the consideration of the remainder of his bill; but since it is not so, I have a brief remark to make, and before I sit down will submit a motion, which may, perhaps, relieve him from further embarrassment.

As the bill now stands, in connexion with those other acts of legislation, of which it is a very natural sequel, it is simply a proposition that a tax which has been levied on the people of the Union, shall be employed to render the people of the States subsidiaries of the Federal Goverminent; to employ the unwieldy machinery of that Government in the collection of a revenue for the use of the States. I will not stop to consider what appears to me to be a most extraordinary doctrine-that the framers of the constitution, in creating a Government, for external defence, and the regulation of commerce, would have designed also to make that Government the tax-gatherers and bailiffs of the States, in the collection of a revenue for their domestic purposes. The objections to such a doctrine are multiplied; but I am content with the view which has been taken of this part of the subject by the Senator from South Carolina.

A passing remark will serve to show why I cannot accept, for my constituents, the boon which this bill is supposed to tender to those who, like them, do not believe that this Government do possess the power to appropriate its resources to the purposes of Internal Improvement, in the participation which it offers to them of that, in which they are not now permitted to share. Here is the pгороsition. Take this bill, and you will get a share of the pubMr. WEBSTER said, the explanation of the gentleman lic treasure, which is now denied to you, and you can apfrom South Carolina was perfectly satisfactory. He did propriate it at your pleasure; and this offer comes from not suppose, because there were persons in favor of de- that Senator, who was one of the most zealous advocates laying the payment of the public debt, that they were to of that measure, under the operation of which, our treabe considered "a party," politically speaking; the gen-sures are now wrested from us, for the benefit of others. tleman had explained, that he meant, by the use of the I confess, sir, I am reminded of a quotation, which is not term, that there were gentlemen in favor of duties upon the less strong, because of its triteness. Yet, in general, imports, and also in favor of the necessity of those duties. I do not fear a gift. I can give sometimes, I hope, in the Now, he [Mr. W.] supposed the gentleman from South spirit which becomes me, and, therefore, I can take, withCarolina, in using the word "party," intended to apply it to out an apprehension that what is offered to me is tenderthose who were interested in the public debt, and, for him- ed in a contrary spirit. A moment's reflection, however, self, he had no doubt that there were individuals who were might have suggested to the Senator from New Jersey, interested in keeping up the stock, and in delaying the re- that this project would leave the constitutional difficulty

Distribution of the Revenue.