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for the purpose of taking away the rights and theme that the whole interests of our State would be liberties of the people.

Mr. SCHELL-I hope, sir, the amendment will not prevail. The remarks which have been made by the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], it seems to me, are not convincing in favor of the proposition. I shall commence at the point at which he ends. He remarks that in a short time the iron hand will be laid upon the canals. Does he not know, sir, that the railroads cheapening transportation, have been the means of bringing the products of the far West to our State-that the State of New York has derived great advantage from it, and that from year to year that transportation has been cheapened? And cannot it be said, sir, that the canals are the competitors of the railroads in transportation? On the contrary, sir, the canals are the competing power of the railroads, and the railroads competing with each other will continue to restrain

Mr. DUGANNE-Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? Would not the consolidation of all the railroads tend to make such a power as would monopolize the carrying trade of these canals ?

Mr. SCHELL-It is impossible to conceive that the railroads of the State of New York, and those passing through New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Maryland, as was said by the gentleman from New York [Mr. J. Brooks] can ever be brought together so as to destroy the canals of this State. The competition that exists between these several railroads requires that there should be certain privileges and certain protection given to railroads in this State, so that they shall not be destroyed by the competing lines of other States. And, sir, the great objection to the proposition made by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker] is, that it puts the railroads of our State in the control of railroads in other States. It is by the power of organization that freights may be reduced, and produce may be transported at the lowest rates. Why, sir, look at the experience we had last winter in the inconvenience of having the connection of the railroad from Buffalo to New York severed for one day. The whole State was put to great inconvenience by reason of its being so severed; and the only remedy for that would be consolidation. If the roads from Buffalo to New York should make arrangements to consolidate, it would enable produce to be transported more reasonably and therefore advance the commercial interests of the State. But, sir, as has been remarked, there are other

better served by allowing the Legislature to act upon this subject, rather than by adopting the proposition of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker]. Fifteen millions, as has been observed, is a small amount of capital to apply to internal communication; and why should New York put its hand upon these efforts which are intended to secure communication between the several parts of this State and with other States now competing with this State for the great trade of the West and prevent their accomplishment.

Mr. BALLARD-I am heartily in favor of this amendment of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker]. Consolidation is a term in the statutory enactments; but, Mr. Chairman, the interests of commerce, the interests of trade, the desire of gain are continually tending to commercial arrangement between these different railways; and I think it may be safely intrusted to the enterprise, and I might say patriotism, and the hope of gain on the part of these companies running through this State, to protect us against these rival routes which have been spoken of, running through Pennsylvania and Maryland. I think, sir, that the amendment of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker] would be a wise provision for this Convention to adopt; so that we may keep from the statute book this consolidation, having the power of the legal enactment to keep up with the results which would flow from it, leaving it—so far as the interests of the State are concerned-so far as our hold on the vast commerce of the West is concerned-to the interest of these different routes to combine by contract instead of statutory consolidation.

Mr. T. W. DWIGHT-The gentleman from New York [Mr. J. Brooks], with other gentlemen who have spoken on this subject in opposition to the amendment of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], has based his opposition on the ground of the interests of trade. I think, sir, that the subject, in the words of another, rises to a higher dignity and has its roots in a deeper policy. While I yield to no one in ny desire that the trade of our great emporium should not be diminished, and while I rejoice when I see it increase, I also desire that nothing should be done in any manner to interfere with the prosperity of the entire State. Why, sir, this question, it seems to me sometimes, becomes a question of sovereignty. It is a question whether the people shall succumb to corporations; whether they shall exercise their sovereign power in the way in which a great people ought to exercise it, or whether this sovereign power should substantially depart Mr. SCHELL-It was by the operation of the from them and should yield to the action of an railroad companies-by the disagreement in run-irresponsible corporation. Now, sir, we know ning the roads. If they had been consolidated, that the tendency of railroad corporations, above all there would have been no difficulty. But, as I others, is to form combinations. When a great was about to remark, there are other interests. and organizing mind gets control of one of theso The great northern trade may be brought to New institutions there is apt to be a tendency on his York, and arrangements are in progress looking to part to unite the action of all from a desire that that result. It may be necessary for the protec- there should be no interruption in the continuity tion that consolidation of the roads for that pur- of travel. He desires almost from his very nature pose should be had. The same action may also to see that these great associations should form be necessary with the eastern roads terminating one line and be under the management of one in New York, in order to insure freight and pass-mind, one strong will controlling its action. I do engers from the East to New York. It seems to not blame such men. They naturally tend in that

Mr. HARDENBURGH-Who severed the connection of those roads?

direction. But on the other hand it ought to be seeking to prevent. She has not needed them in asked whether it is for the advantage of the State the past to give her the advantage, commercially, to have a powerful interest within it representing over every part of the State, and I do not believe so great an organization, extending perhaps to that she can need them in the future. But is it posother States, like, for example, the Chicago and sible that gentlemen here discussing a question of Northwestern Railroad Company. We all know this kind, a question, I think of principle and a queshow, from a very small institution. it has become tion perhaps of personal liberty; a question, to a one of the most gigantic corporations in the land. certain extent of legislative purity; is it possible Does it stop at State lines? Does it confine itself that they are to decide it, and give all up upon the to the State of Wisconsin, where it was originally mere idea of money? Is money sufficient comconstituted? No, sir; it has extended, or seeks pensation for the yielding up by the people of so to extend, itself as to engross the trade of sev- their control of their own institutions? I trust eral States. It has merged powerful corporations not. I trust that we shall not be so dazzled by into itself as a single institution; and the men the jewels that glitter in the crown as to tempt who manage it may have the ambition to make it us willingly to submit to it. I doubt very much the great and controlling line of the country. if the gentlemen of this Convention, placed her Whenever that takes place, the good of the people by the people to take a firm stand in restricting will necessarily be overlooked. The interests of the the Legislature from innovations upon their rights, corporation will be everything, and the interests will be willing to decide it upon a mere question of the people will be of but little account. When- like that. But I insist that no railroad consolidaever great corporations become thus united under tion can interfere at all with the progress or the one organizing hand, and controlled by one brain, wealth of the city of New York. I ask, are the question will certainly be presented whether there not personal rights and personal interests the local interests of the State shall be protected of every individual citizen of this State involved? or the great corporation shall be fostered, and Give to the Legislature supreme power over the then, of course, the interests of the State will subject and what shall prevent its consolidating naturally yield to the idea which has taken hold the Central, the Hudson River, and the Harlem, of the organizing mind. The main ground of all and if they have influence to bring about that, they the objections which have been urged in regard will, of course, have the power to fix the prices to corruption of the Legislature, it seems to me, of freight and the fare of passengers at precisely is to be found in the tendency of these corporate what they desire. The people that travel over interests to grasp at the substance of sovereignty those roads daily, and make up by their contribu-their tendency to look at the interests of their tions the wealth of that great city; these are line, of the trade which comes over their line-the men that are interested in this great quesrather than at the interests of the State. tion; these are the men that are to pay double When the advantage of the State and its own tribute to these corporations after they shall have supposed interests come in collision, and resist- been consolidated. It is a question of personal ance is made in behalf of the State, the corporate right and personal liberty-a question in which, organization aims to beat down and overcome in my judgment, every man in this State is deeply the resistance. It is ever watchful and will not interested, and one that I trust they will look to. yield until it is successful. It will not be scrupu- My friend from New York, who spoke first against lous in the means which it employs to accomplish this amendment [Mr. J. Brooks], said he hoped that its designs. The State may still retain the form the subject of railroads would not be introduced of sovereignty but its power is wielded by a body here that there should be no excitement. But extraneous to itself. While there may be danger pray why exclude the subject of railroads, if that of this result in the combination of several cor- be a proper subject for legislative restriction? I porations constituting a continuous line, that dan- admit that we should meet it coolly, as does my ger is largely increased when a single board of friend from New York; but we should meet it directors controls them all, dominated, as it is firmly and boldly. We shall justly be held responalmost sure to be, by a single master mind. The sible in the future if we neglect to say to this occasion, the opportunity will supply the man. Legislature, aye, and to say to these corporations, Thus the strong man of the present moment"Thus far shalt thou go and no farther." will surely have his successor, inspired by the Mr. RATHBUN-It is said that all power corporate spirit, and inheriting the aims and resides in the people, and a favorite topic among methods of his predecessor. For these and other the politicians is that they are sovereign, and that reasons I am in favor of the amendment of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker]. Whether the precise limitation of fifteen millions, which he has proposed, is best I am not prepared to say, but I favor the principle of the amendment, and hope that it will be adopted.

all power emanates from them; but I have thought at times, Mr. Chairman, that there were some powers that were not to be overlooked, in determining questions which are presented from time to time for examination. It was said in olden times that education was power; and we can very Mr. A. J. PARKER-Opposition has been readily see, when we compare the power of the made to this amendment upon the ground that it uneducated with that of the educated, that there might interfere with the city of New York. Now, is a distinction, in regard to the question of power, that such an objection is entirely groundless I between the well educated and those that are unhave no doubt whatever. Certain it is that the educated. But, sir, there is another element of eity of New York has grown up to be the great power which I have heard of. and which I have emporium of the commerce of this portion of the sometimes been afraid of, and that is money; and if world without the consolidations which I am there is any power existing in the State of New

York, or among any people in the United States, remedy. I will not say that that power could be against the influence of which the people require successfully used, nor what would be the most to be guarded and protected, it is money. Now, efficient way to use it; but it is enough to say sir, the source of legislative corruption begins in that the remedy was not applied. The quarrel money, and it ends in money. Without that was arranged and the business resumed. I subnobody would have been telling us about legisla-mit that we should retain the power to coerce and tive corruption; that is the source of temptation, control these corporations, and to compel them and it is the source of the wrongs from which the to act, not in spite and malice toward one anothpeople have suffered, if they have suffered at er, but to act in combination upon the principles all at the hauds of the Legislature. The more on which they were incorporated, and that was you combine that power, sir, in the hands of a for the prosperity and benefit of the people, and few, the more dangerous you make it to the great not for the coercion and control of the people. body of the people. If you look back, sir, In that view of it, sir, we preserve some only a few years ago, and endeavor to find show of competition among these corporaout the time when legislative corruption tors; but the moment that we permit them began, so as to be worthy of particular to form unlimited consolidations of their railroads, note, I apprehend that the era which may be we are at their mercy. We are sufficiently under marked out was about the time of the consolida- their influence now; and I do hope and trust that tion of the great route between Albany and Buf- this Convention will do something toward prefalo. That was a most gigantic experiment. That venting the further advancement over the people was a day when a rich shower fell into the hats of that power which may be used to oppress them. and into the hands of members of the Legislature | That it will place a limit, not on combinations for everywhere-when paid-up railroad stock was the purpose of transacting business, but on consolput into members' hats that happened to idation of power to override and oppress the peobe on the right side, and the poor, ple. I am in favor of that amendment, Mr. Chairinnocent man who took it up, with man, and I am in favor of all such restrictions; out knowing that anything of the kind was and I trust that all members of this Convention to fall in his way, found himself the owner of who are free to act, and who are disposed to act paid-up stock in the great consolidated railroad in behalf of themselves and the people whom from Albany to Buffalo, was ready to ride home a they represent, will give their support to this rich man; and from that day to this-whether proposition. the reports be true or false I know not-but from Mr. J. BROOKS-It was far from my intention that day to this the Legislature have been de- to enter upon any discussion upon any subject, scending in public estimation, not very gradually, but a proposition so important as this, not only to but rather more rapidly, in fact, than is agreeable the State, but to the city which I in part repreto the people. Is it not about time for us to pause sent, I felt it my duty to discuss the moment it in this matter and see whether there is anything presented itself here. But, it seems to me, comleft that the people can hold fast to in order to re-ing to this body from another sphere, that I had gain their rights and restore the purity of the almost come into another country, from the relegislative body who make their laws? Now,gions whence I came. In the last legislative body sir, I am not opposed-nay, sir, I am as much in in which I appeared, I heard of nothing but the favor of the prosperity of the people of the State purity of the people, the intelligence of the peoand of the city of New York as anybody in the ple, the capacity of the people for self-government, world, for it is my native land; I never lived in and the incorruptibility of the people; but here, I any other. I am proud to be a citizen of this hear of nothing but the frauds about to be perpeState; I am proud to be able to say that I was trated upon the people, the incapacity of the peoborn in the State of New York. But, while I desire ple for self-government, the ignorance of the peoits prosperity and would make any sacrifice pole, the susceptibility of the people to the money necessary to promote it, I am at the power, the want of confidence and trust in the same time unwilling to sacrifice the rights Legislature, whom the people create, and the and interests of the people to ad- whole tendency of the legislation here, or of the vance the prosperity of corporations, which discussion here, is a pronunciamento against all need not and in fact have no right to demand a self-government, against the capacity of the peoconsolidation of an amount of money, under the ple to elect their legislators, or against the corrupcontrol of a single head, that can bind the whole tibility of any legislator who is sent here to reprebody of the people hand and foot. Sir, I am in sent the people. I have been educated in a school favor, not of the consolidation of railroads, but far different from that-in a reliance upon the of such a combination of railroads as to iusure people; and though I am often voted down success in the business of railroads running from by the people, in due deference to the majesone point to another necessarily connected in the ty of the people, I am accustomed to think transportation of passsngers and freight. It has that I am more likely to be mistaken in my opinbeen said, sir, that within the last year the people ion, when I cannot convince the people, than that were interrupted in their travel, and their freight the great body of the people themselves are delayed upon the road, and arrested in its pro-likely to be mistaken or corrupt. But here the gress to market. And what was the reason of honorable gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] that interruption? A quarrel between two pow-and the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun], erful corporations. And yet, sir, they were all who represent agricultural districts, who are supwithin the power and the reach of the Legislature posed to be incorruptible, tell us over aud over of the State, if they had the courage to apply the again in this body, although they or their friends

Mr. RATHBUN-I would ask the gentleman whether the cars do not run now from New York to St. Louis without change?

Mr. J. BROOKS-Only by the co-operation of multitudinous directors, but it is in the power of any one railroad, or one board of directors, to interrupt the communication.

or associates may hereafter represent those agri- vide for them. The consolidation of the railroads cultural counties, yet they themselves, when in this State by the Legislature of th:s State was legislators in this State, elected by the farmers of one of the greatest and wisest measures which those counties, are not to be trusted against rail-ever a legislative body had adopted. It was a road corporations and railroad powers, and those matter of necessity as well as of wisdom, for the who have the money and control in some degree control of the trade and the passengers of the all the property of railroad interests in this coun- West could never have been secured but by that try. Sir, I know legislators have been corrupt, act. And next was the erection of the bridge but few Legislatures, in my judgment, have been over the Hudson river and the connection of that so corrupt, as I constantly hear accusations railed line of railroad with the great West. Now, I against them in the discussions which have taken suppose the object of this proposition is to resist place since I have been here. Sir, the people consolidation of the Hudson River and Harlem must be trusted. If the people cannot be trusted roads with the Central Railroad; hence the propoin our Legislatures, or the representatives of the sition meets its support here upon the floor people cannot be trusted, it is time to change the of the Convention, while it is just as wise whole form of our government and resort to that now as it was ten or twelve years government which is over the St. Lawrence-a ago, to consolidate the whole line, over one line. monarchy-to take care of the people and take one capital, one government, one board of, care of the Legislatures of the people. The directors, and one spirit to control the whole line whole theory of our government is that the people Sir, there is no more beautiful spectacle to an and the representatives of the people are to be American-nothing more showing the grandeur trusted, and that confidence and trust may be re- of our country-than to see trains of cars passing posed in the people, and, therefore, I resisted from through here from Omaha, Nebraska, upon the the start this engrafting upon the fundamental law Missouri river, bringing the cattle, produce and of the State an accusation against the people, that luxuries from the West over the rivers, passing by more than fifteen millions of capital vested in them along to the city of New York. It is only a railroad, legislator after legislator could be by a concentration of this capital, by this unity bought up. I resisted it as a principle which of action, and by this wisdomshould not be engrafted upon the Constitution of the State, because places the Empire State at a disadvantage, not only with rival States in other parts of the Union, but with that great railroad and canal corporation beyond the St. Lawrence, Lake Erie and Lake Ontario, which is struggling to turn the great trade of the West down the St. Lawrence to Montreal and Quebec, going away from Mr. DUGANNE-I would ask the gentleman New York directly over the sea. I say I see whether a law has not been passed in this State nothing disadvantageous in at least the concentra-providing for the connection, and whether it cantion of one railroad reaching from Buffalo to the not always be done without consolidation? city of New York; I see no such terrors to the Mr. J. BROOKS-Yet, it is in the power of State as gentlemen picture here and no such any small railroad corporation, like the railroad alarm. When I look to the Legislature of Mary- from Schenectady to Albany, when it was a sepaland I see a far more powerful corporation incor-rate road, it would be in the power of its board porated in that State, reaching from Baltimore to of directors to interrupt the whole communicaWheeling and beyond the limits of that State; tion except by the action of the Legislature of and when I look to the Legislature of Pennsyl- the State, which Legislature this Convention is vania, a Legislature quite as wise as ours in not disposed to trust with the regulation of its the administration of its pecuniary affairs, I own railroads, while I am contending that the see no such terrible results as gentlemen Legislature is to be trusted with the absolute conpredict in the consolidation of one railroad in the trol over these roads, and that the people, in that State of Pennsylvania. Sir, what was the state respect, will have confidence in their legislators. of things hitherto in this State before the rail- Sir, we must not undertake to engraft upon roads were consolidated from the city of Albany the Constitution of the State, legislation of to the city of Buffalo? Gentlemen entered the this sort. The Constitution of the United States, cars at Buffalo, received a pass which would carry which is one of the most beautiful instruments them to the city of Rochester; they then must go that ever was written, is a small instrument, to be to a railroad office to get another pass through to read in a few minutes, to be comprehended by Auburn or to Syracuse (at that time through tick-almost everybody, the wisest Constitution that ets did not exist). At Syracuse another line of railroad exists, and there they must obtain another ticket, connecting or not connecting, to the city of Utica; and at the city of Utica they must obtain another ticket to carry them to the city of Schenectady, and from Schenectady another line of railroad exists reaching to the summit of this hill in Albany, so that they were not taken to the river, but dumped out here in the streets to procure their passage to the commercial emporium as might be agreeable to them, or for others to pro

ever was written. If we attempt to engraft upon this, our State Constitution, provisions like these, merely legislative provisions, upon the presumption that the people are corrupt, and that the Legislature is corrupt and not to be trusted, we shall be creating a Constitution which it will be difficult for the people even to have time to read from October to November, and which will have within itself so many elements of opposition, it will be very likely to meet with but small success before the people. This is a subject which pro

foundly interests my own city, and that is my, perfect darkness the entire of this State. Th's only excuse for the remarks I have made; consolidation does not mean a consolidation of a and I repeat here, before I close, that it is single line of road reaching from the lakes to the impossible to concentrate the trade of this river and to the sea. It means the consolidation country through this State upon the great com- of the New York and Erie with the New York mercial emporium, against British capital which Central and the Harlem and Hudson holding thus .s pouring into Canada, against Pennsylvania, in their own hands the entire keys throughout Baltimore and their capital-It is impossible the length and breadth of this State, and saying to concentrate, keep and monopolize, as we are to the people, "You cannot have any other means keeping, the great growing trade of the West- by which you shall reach from the great and growIt is impossible to do it except by allowing cap-ing West to the East of this country." That is ital free and full fair play, without these constitu- the position which the thing occupies to-day; tional restrictions upon it, irrevocable and irrepar- that is the desire of these men who wish to have able at least for twenty years to come. it left to the Legislature in the future, that they Mr. CASSIDY-I regret to differ with my dis- may consolidate their interests, not the consolitinguished colleague in regard to a matter so im-dation of a single line moving from one point to portant as this. If he had modified his proposi- another, but the consolidation of the entire railtion so as to confine it to parallel and necessarily road interests in this State in one great corporacompeting roads, it would have had great plausi- tion, throwing out its iron hand from the center bility, and I have no doubt would have com- throughout the extent of it all around upon its manded at first view the general assent of this borders, holding in its deadly grasp the interests body; but, even in that shape, I think it still of the people of the State. Sir, the gentleman objectionable. It is impossible for us, even in a from New York [Mr. J. Brooks] who addressed Constitution, to confine the course of capital and to the committee undertook to talk about our want prevent those great combinations which trade de- of confideuce in the people. I have not any want mands, and which it is always finally able to of confidence in the people. I come here, sir, to enforce. If the law should attempt to-day to pre- represent my people-the people of my locality, vent the consolidation of lines between the lakes the people of my county, who, without any reand our great sea-port, a tacit understanding gard to political distinction, will stand up to-day, would, as now, combine them together. It would, every one of them who have not the trammels of as it often has, combine competing lines-the the railroads upon them-and, thank God, they Erie railroad with the Central, and those two with are the small minority-and say, the Pennsylvania Central upon a common tariff for freight and passengers, and thus baffle these prohibitions which the Constitution would place against them. We would stand here with a Constitution utterly and emphatically inoperative, and whose prohibition would thus have no force. This great State must accept its destiny. It is not a small State, where fifteen millions of capital is formidable. It would do for Rhode Island or Delaware, to have some limitation of that kind, but it takes five hundred miles of travel to reach from the lakes to our great emporium of commerce. We must have here immense lines with all their extended connections. Our railroads are developing to an extent never before known. We are but at the beginning of this railroad life. We shall have, in years to come, a line from the ocean to the lakes, devoted to carrying the freight of the great West; and therefore we must accept our destiny as a great State, great in extent and holding the control of the commerce of the continent; and we must allow these great capitals to unite and combine. We must not attempt to divide up and hold apart these lines. They have already the power of combination, by open agreement, or by tacit understanding, and our mandate would be wholly inoperative. Let us not write words without force in our Constitution.

Well done, thou good and faithful servant when I go in favor of the proposition of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker]. This is the way I have confidence in the people. I believe the people of the State of New York demand it at the hands of this Convention that they should place in the organic law, for the people who have got to pass upon this matter and approve CI it, that there shall not by any possibitity in the future any doubt in regard to this great and grave subject of great moment and importance to the people. Now, sir, may not seem right under the grave and heavy weight which surrounds this subject, to speak of any inaccuracies of statements made upon this floor on the part of those gentlemen who are opposed to this resolution, but, sir, I believe I have also lived within the State of New York, and within the central portion of the State all my life; I have seen the railroad began and ended; I have seen these disjointed pieces spoken of by the gentleman from New York [Mr. J. Brooks], but I never yet saw, and never was compelled in all my transfer over the line of that railroad to get out of the car at Rochester and buy a new ticket to go to Auburn, or to get out at Auburn and buy a new ticket to go to Syracuse, and so on. I got exactly what you get to-day, although in greater numbers; I got a continuous ticket, and when the Rochester man took my ticket I had a part of it left to go on with. It is true, in the first place, there were separate tickets, but all sold at each office; but afterward continuous tickets. How is it now?

Mr. ALVORD-I desire to say a very few words further upon this question. I will ask gentlemen to look upon the present state of things in the State of New York to day. I think I speak advisably, and I speak with the knowledge of those within the limits of this Convention who are en- I get in at Buffalo and take a ticket to the city of gaged in the enterprise of which I wish to speak. New York; I surrender a portion of it It is true that now it is but a cloud the size of a when I get to Albany, and the balance man's hand but it is soon to overwhelm is of it carries me through. There is

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