Mr. CORNING-I am induced to make this remark from thirty years' experience in railroad matters. I have come to the conclusion that this amendment is a wise one, and in my judgment ought to be incorporated in the Constitution. another thing. The gentleman from New York facts to-day? Those canals are gradually filling [Mr. J. Brooks] undertakes to talk about the up from one end of the country to the other, and caprice of these intervening railroads, that they this railroad influence has gone down to her Legmay throw the business entirely out of joint. islature, and has abrogated so much of the comIt is not caprice that governs these men, it is tract in regard to the question of tolls, that to solid interests, their interests forbid that they day, against less than one-quarter of the amount should throw anything in the way of the trans- of cost to the owners of railroads canals and mission rapidly of person and property, and as mines together, it costs the inhabitants of the long as their interests jumps with the convenience State of Pennsylvania, outside of the railroad and of the public-and it must necessarily in this canal corporations and the inhabitants of the city case, the interest will control, and caprice will of New York going down to their mines for the have nothing whatever to do with it. I will ask purpose of getting upon their connections and conthe gentleman also to tell me whether the fact is necting with the canals of the State of New York not to-day, that upon the line of the New York so as to get coal for the two dollars and fifty cents and Hudson River road, there does not proceed for the canal toll, one hundred miles when it costs trains of cars running over the bridge at Albany, in the State of New York under our toll system coming up on the Central road and through twenty cents for the same distance. Now, Rochester, spreading out like a fan, and a portion this is the result of the action of a sister State in York this matter, and I trust that while we can, we going up the line of the New Central railroad and crossing the Suspension will shut down the gate, so that it cannot by any Bridge and moving up through Canada possibility be raised in the future, either through on the Western railroad and crossing at Detroit, the mistaken notions or corrupt advice of the legand still the passengers and freight crossing or islators of the State; that we shall do it permamoving along continuously and without change nently and at least forever so far as the existence until they reach Chicago, and even then, going of the Constitution which we are about to frame across from Chicago to the Mississippi river, and, will permit of the use of that word. crossing that at the different lines from Fulton and other places; also going down the Rock Island road and crossing the river and going into far Iowa, then, taking another route and going down to St. Louis or Omaha. It is because the interests of these roads render it neceseary that they should give these facilities of transportation to the people that they are thus kept together for the benefit and convenience of the people. I believe not in consolidation; I believe as the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun] says in combinaThe combination is a combination tion here. which will exist so long as the interests of those who are engaged in it, and that, of course, will be as long as the people shower benefits upon them; "The capital stock of all corporations organthat combination is a combination that may be changed, so far as regards its operation upon the ized under the provisions of this section shall be people, by changing the directors from time to fully paid up in cash, and all such corporations time of the different roads. Consolidation puts it now existing, or that may hereafter be formed, in the hands of one head, one man, and one gov-shall be required to make annual statements to ernment, and it becomes an iron, inflexible rule, out of which you cannot go. Now, sir, I ask the gentlemen of this Couvention to go back with me a few moments to the State of Pennsylvania; I ask them to look at the history of that State, and Mr. BELL-For the purpose of getting a vote impress upon their minds what has been the result of railroad legislation within the limits of the at this session, I will withdraw my amendment. I State of Pennsylvania. She had a system of did not intend to override the other amendment. Mr. CHURCH-It is now two o'clock. I trust canals permeating almost her entire country, carrying the humble boat of the private individual this question will not be put to a vote at this time. to his farm, or to his mine, cr to his business It is too important, and I submit under the order place, wherever it might be, carrying it at the of this Convention the committee must rise and rates fixed by the State of Pennsylvania, im-report progress. mutable so far as it could be made by leg Mr. BELL-It is evident we will not complete this article at this sitting, nor reach a vote on the amendment now pending. I would therefore ask if an amendment is now in order? The CHAIRMAN-Yes, sir. Mr. BELL-I offer this amendment, not for the purpose of pressing it now, but that it may be examined in connection with the pending section. I offer it to meet a defect which exists in the present Constitution. It is as follows: some State officer of their assets and liabilities and of their income and expenditures. Mr. CHESEBRO-I move that the committee do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair thinks the comIn an evil day and un-mittee must rise, not necessarily to report proislative enactment. der evil advice, the State of Pennsylvania gress, but that the President may take the chair at parted with her interests in those canals, but she two o'clock and adjourn the Convention. The hour of two o'clock having arrived, the impressed upon the contract by means of which she parted from them, that they should be main- President resumed the chair and declared tained, and that the tolls upon them should never the Convention adjourned until Saturday morn be raised above the tolls of 1856. What are the ing. Mr. SEAVER, from the Committee on Printing, submitted the following report: SATURDAY, August 17, 1867. The PRESIDENT-The Chair has received a communication from Mr. Ludington, stating that he is too unwell to attend, and therefore he asks for leave of absence. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. HUTCHINS-Mr. Van Cott was suddenly taken sick last night, and I ask leave of absence for him. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. SEYMOUR-I wish to ask leave of absence for my colleague, Mr. Francis, who is necessarily absent until Wednesday morning, on account of sickness in his family. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. SEYMOUR-I wish to ask leave of absence for Mr. Armstrong, on account of illness, until Tuesday. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. E. P. BROOKS-I ask leave of absence for Mr. Ballard until Tuesday next. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. WALES-I ask leave of absence for Mr. Baker, of Montgomery. Your committee, to whom was referred the fol Resolved, That the sergeant-at-arms deposit in the box of each member in the post-office of this Convention, three copies of all documents and reports printed by this Convention. Would respectfully report that they have had the subject under consideration, and find that the adoption of this resolution will involve the printing of an extra number of documents and reports, which, your committee being admonished by the former action of the Convention, do not feel at liberty to recommend, and therefore submit the question for the consideration of the Convention, with the following explanation: Rule 42 provides for the printing of the usual number (800) of all documents and reports of the Convention. Rules 43, 44 and 45, provide for the disposition of these documents, reports, etc., as follows: Mr. FOLGER-I move that it lie on the table for the present. The question was put on the motion of Mr. Folger, and it was declared carried. Mr. CHAMPLAIN-I offer a resolution, and ask that it lie over under the rule. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the reso No objection being made, leave was granted. No objection being made, leave was granted." Mr. DALY-I ask leave of absence until Tuesday morning uext. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. LARREMORE-I ask leave of absence, conditionally, until Wednesday morning. I have a professional engagement which may detain me, but will not avail myself of it if it is not necessary to do so. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. ALVORD-I am requested by my col league, Mr. Andrews, to ask leave of absence for him for this session, from the fact that he is subpœnaed as a witness in the case of proving a will. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. ALVORD-I ask leave of absence for Mr. Corbett for this day's session. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. SILVESTER-I desire to ask leave of absence for Mr. Stratton, on account of sickness, until Tuesday next, No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. FOWLER-I desire to ask leave of absence for Mr. Case, who is necessarily absent, and will be absent until Friday next. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. MERWIN presented the petition of S. G. Read and eighteen others for a constitutional provision for the protection of fisheries in the international waters of the State. Which was referred to the standing Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights. Mr. BELL presented the petition of Captain S. Resolved, That the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rights, be instructed to report as a part of the same, the eleventh section of article one of the existing Constitution, with the following amendment as a part of the said eleventh section: "No part of the lands included within the limits and jurisdiction of the State shall be ceded to any corporation created by the Federal Government, nor to the Federal Government, except for mail, military and naval purposes exclusively, and in such cases only upon the express condition that the right is reserved to execute civil and criminal process issued under State authority, on such ceded territory, and also the writ of habeas corpus in behalf of any person therein imprisoned or restrained in liability. Which was referred to the Committee on the Preamble and Bill of Rrights. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I call up the resolution offered by me yesterday. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resoution, as follows: Resolved, That the Comptroller be requested to report to this Convention: 1. The value, per capita, of all the real estate in the several counties of this State, as exhibited by the last official assessment and census. 2. The value, per capita, of all the personal estate. 3. The value, per capita, of the real estate represented by incorporated or associated capital. 4. The value, per capita, of the personal estate represented by incorporated or associated capital. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-Mr. President, I had sup posed that a mere resolution of inquiry of this nature would go through without any opposition. I have seen the Comptroller, and he agreed to furnish the information required, and I think it will be of great use to the Convention in the consideration of the report of the Committee on the Finances of the State. I hope this resolution wil! pass. Mr. FOLGER-I would like the gentleman to state what he means by the amount of real estate per capita. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-Suppose the corporations of a county held one million real estate, and the population of a county was one hundred thousand, the answer is obvious. Mr. ALVORD—I would like to inquire of the gentleman what he means by real estate, per capita, for incorporated companies. draw my motion, but will vote against the reso- Mr. SEAVER-I hope this resolution will prevail. It is a matter of considerable importance. It is the only question on which I am pledged to my constituents, that I would endeavor to secure a provision in the Constitution for the equal distribution of the property of the State every Saturday night. I trust it will prevail, for I think that is the only object that can be effected by it. The question was put on the resolution of Mr. S. Townsend, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 40 to 38. Mr. FOLGER-I move to reconsider the vote Mr. S. TOWNSEND-Incorporated companies hold real estate. I mean by per capita the popu- on this resolution. lation of the county. SEVERAL DELEGATES-There is no quorum Mr. FLAGLER-I shall vote against the reso-voting. lution, for I cannot see that it would be of any practical value to the Convention. I move that it lie on the table. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I hope the gentleman will withdraw his motion for a moment. Mr. FLAGLER-I will do so. The PRESIDENT-The Chair is aware of the fact that there is no quorum voting, and the resolution therefore lies on the table. Mr. KINNEY-In view of the fact that on Friday evening next there will be no session of the Convention in this hall, I offer the following resolution, and would like to have it considered at this time. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the use of this hall be granted to the Hon. C. P. Johnson, of Brooklyn, on Friday evening next, to deliver a free lecture on the Philosophy of Government. Mr. S. TOWNSEND- Perhaps it would be proper to explain a little further. I may be wrong in reference to the result of the inquiry. I had hoped, Mr. Chairman, that the resolution would need no further explanation than it contained on its face, but I will now say that some years since, from a slight examination of the question, I derived the impression that the valuation of real Mr. ALVORD-I am opposed to the passage property and real estate, personal, real or incorporate, ran in closer parallels in the several coun- of the resolution, not but I would be willing to ties of the State than was generally supposed. It grant to the Hon. C. P. Johnson the right to use is to elicit more light on this fact, through the this room when we might not want it, if we have experts of the Comptroller's office (and I think I the right to do so, but I doubt whether this Conam justitied in here saying that it was with his vention has any such power over this room as to approval this resolution was framed). rather than be authorized to grant its use to any one except we should individually be compelled to unravel for the purpose of coming before a committee of the facts from the numerous documents now on this Convention, in order to enlighten them upọn our tables. This table, sir, would prove of great matters which it may be necessary for us to act use to the Convention when they have under con- upon in the future, and it is for that reason that I one am opposed to this resolution. sideration the three reports from our Finance Committee in relation to the State debt, Mr. KINNEY-I think we have established taxation, etc.—a taxation that for State purposes the precedent beyond a doubt that we can grant imposed twelve millions of dollars on the several the use of this hall for such purposes. On three counties, or an equivalent of three dollars per occasions to my knowledge it has been used for capita on the people of the entire State. Again, purposes no more legitimately connected with the sir, I hope under the light and information that business of this Convention than the one now such table would furuish that the Convention, under consideration, and on one occasion when we would learn that when there are apparent dis- desired to use it ourselves. If the hall is not to crepancies in the rate of property and population be used by ourselves I cannot see any objection these discrepan- to granting the use of it. in any of the counties, erroneous basis of cies had arisen from an assessment in certain counties as compared to others, notwithstanding the existence of a board of State assessors, who have, in my opinion, failed in a great measure to serve the object of their organization, and thus render necessary some constitutional action to secure the equitable distribution of the State taxation upon the several counties, leaving the details of the local taxation to the county officers, under the direction of general laws. That is all I have to say. Mr. ALVORD—I would say to the gentleman from Tioga [Mr. Kinney] that in these three cases which he pitches upon, it was a matter of discusIt was for the purpose of ension before a standing committee of this Convention in each case. lightening us in regard to matters which were before us, or which were to come before us. Mr. KINNEY-The lecture to be delivered, then, will be delivered before the Committee of the Whole, on probably the most important ques tion before this Convention, namely, the subject of Government, and that, I think, takes it out of the objection. Mr. FLAGLER-I have been advised that this resolution is intended or has reference to the disThe question was put on the resolution of Mr. tribution of the State which was introduced to the Convention some time ago. I shall with- Kinney, and it was declared carried. Mr. GRAVES-I call for the reconsideration, to me, for us to wait until that body, within of the vote upon the resolution offered by Mr. E. Brooks, day before yesterday, on the question of secret voting. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the select committee of five, to whom was referred the article on Suffrage, be authorized to examine and report .upon the expediency of providing for open ballot. whose appropriate jurisdiction this subject comes, may have an opportunity of determining what their action shall be, when all the facts upon which their action is to be based may be presented to them, and when the particular circumstances which may call for and give rise to that action may be properly presented. I submit, therefore, in addition to the objection that it is not a matter properly within our control, that even if it were Mr. GRAVES-I received, a few days ago, a one within our control upon which we were to letter from a very intelligent gentleman from the pass, we have not sufficient information or light western part of this State, commending very to enable us to form an intelligent and proper highly the course of this Convention in attempting judgment. Now the objections which have been to correct the evils now existing at the ballot-box, raised to the granting of this permission, and saying that the whole evils grew out of the or the reasons which have been urged why secret ballot. I have not given the subject much this amendment should pass, were among attention, and presume many of the members have other things that it is inexpedient, ever not. I hope this resolution will be called up and .examined at such a time as will suit the conveni.ence of members of this Convention. to give corporations of the magnitude of those mentioned in this amendment, authority or permission to consolidate themselves with others, for fear of creating what one of the gentletlemen on the floor calls an unusual and inordi The question was put on the motion of Mr. Graves, and it was declared lost. The Convention then resolved itself into Com-nate amount and magnitude of combined capital. mittee of the Whole upon the report of the Committee on Currency, Banking, Insurance, etc., Mr. CHESEBRO, of Ontario, in the chair. The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be on the amendment offered by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker]. It was stated in one of the objections to giving permission to increase the capital of any corporation, or any number of corporations, to the extent mentioned in the amendment, that it gave them vast power, gave them power to do much that was evil and prevent much which might be Mr. BURRILL—I am opposed to the amend- good and beneficial toward the people of this ment which has been offered by the gentle- State. It seems to me that if there were any man from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker] among force in that objection, if there was any ground other reasons, because I think it introduces a to suppose that the mere fact of a consolidation subject which is not properly within our control, of companies securing an increased capital or a and upon which we ought not to pass. Gentle- combined capital to a large amount, would be promen who have discussed this subject have treated ductive of injury, the same injury and the same it as if the question were now to be propounded danger to be apprehended would be as justly appreto us for our decision and passed upon by us hended and as justly occasioned by any combinawhether or not the consolidation of railroad tion of corporations, who act upon the same capital corporations under the circumstances stated in as if they were consolidated. In other words, the amendment ought to be tolerated or allowed. the evil to be avoided should be avoided by preIt seems to me that is not the question before venting combination of corporations; and if there this committee. No such question is properly be any force in the objection-if those evils are here. We are not to determine upon the expe- really to be apprehended, they should be avoided diency of granting permission to corporations of by preventing the combination of corporations, that description to consolidate with other corpo- and, in regard to that matter, there would, of rations, but the only question with us is course, be a wide difference of opinion. It is said, whether or not we are justified in in- again, by those who favor this amendment, that serting in the Constitution of this State if permission of this kind be given, these cora rule, which shall be inflexible, by which porations will exercise their power to bring to the Legislatures of this State for the next bear improper influences upon the Legislature, twenty years shall be controlled and governed, and induce them to pass laws which might be and which will prevent them from adapting their prejudicial to the entire people of the State. conduct and their legislation to the future wants If we are to make a law here which shall be of the people of this State. It seems to me, there- based on the theory that, for the next twenty fore, that gentlemen have not put the question years, there shall be no honest Legislature in this fairly and properly before the committee. They State, and that, during one-fifth of a century, the have put it perhaps in the most favorable form to people of this State will not send men to the Legsecure the adoption of views advanced by those | islature, a majority of whom shall be honest, then parties who favor the amendment. But even if there might be some forco in the objection; but I the question were here before us to determine do insist we have no right to make a law which whether or not we should grant (had we the shall bind the people of this State for the next power) leave to companies of this description to twenty years, which will be inflexible and cannot consolidate under the circumstances mentioned in be changed, and do that upon the theory and upon this resolution, I submit we have not the means the basis and upon the idea that the Legislatures of information, we have not the data, we have of this State, for the next twenty years, are to be not the facts upon which we could form any reli- corrupt, and that no majority of a Legislature able or intelligent judgment. It is botter, it seems during that time will be composed of honest, upright and conscientious men. It seems to me could change and abrogate what we do here, that whether or not Legislatures are honest, which could modify the provision which whether they are open to corruption or not, we propose to insert in this Constitution, so that is a question upon which we have no right the evil, if there be any evil, arising out of our to determine so far as to assume that no future legislation might be corrected, I probably would Legislature, during the period of time I have be willing to go, perhaps, for inserting in this mentioned, will be other than corrupt and dis- Constitution some provision in regard to which I honest. It is again said that a permission of this might have doubt, but in reference to which I kind will throw into the hands of these consoli- might be disposed to yield my conviction and the dated companies a great power, and enable them, convictions of those who seem better able to in the language of one of the gentlemen upon judge in regard to their expediency. But when I this floor, to oppress the people of the State. I, for recollect that what we do here must last for one, do not feel that I am able to decide in advance twenty years, until the people of this State aswhat should be the financial policy of the State in sembled again in Convention shall undertake to reference to this subject for the next twenty years, reorganize the Constitution of the State; when but it does seem to me that this idea that the I recollect that, I am disposed to hesitate long and power given to these corporations may be exer- doubt much before I consent to insert here anycised improperly and to the detriment of the State thing in regard to the expediency of which I doubt during the next twenty years is one which will so much as I do in regard to the matter in quesbe within the control of the Legislature during tion. Is there any gentleman on this floor who that period of time, and that if there be any can say to himself that he thoroughly underdanger to be apprehended in this direction, it will stands the whole of this subject? that he has be within the power of the Legislature of this sagacity enough to anticipate the condition of this State during that time to prevent it by proper State or of the people of this State at the end of restrictive legislation, and to control and manage twenty years? Can any gentleman tell us to what these corporations so as to secure the people extent the resources of this State may be extendagainst the occurrence of these evils. Are we ed? Can he tell us to what extent drafts may prepared to say that, with the light we have, with be made on the resources of the citizens, upon the knowledge we now possess, we are able to their enterprise and upon their industry? Can he lay down a rule of conduct by which all future tell us what the resources of this State will be Legislatures shall be governed and guided. for the next twenty years, to what extent exand that they shall not be left to adapt their perience may show us they are capable of being measures to the future circumstances as they developed, and to what extent here they must may arise, that they shall not be at liberty to pro- be developed, in order to meet the increasing pose such legislation as in their judgment the wants of the people? I see no gentleman here that increasing wauts of the commerce and the de- has sufficient sagacity and foresight to determine mauds of trade may require? It seems to me we these things. But a short time ago, within are not prepared to go that length. I, at least, the last twenty years, had any gentleman asserted am not prepared for one. And while I have very that there would be in the present year telegraphic great respect for the gentleman who introduced communication between the United States and this amendment, and also have very great regard Europe-that we should be within a few hours' for his colleague from Albany [Mr. Corning], who communication of the capitals, not only of the favors it, and who stated to us on the floor of this British Isles, but all the capitals of the large house what his experience had been, yet I suggest, empires within the more interior districts of with due deference to him, that the experience of Europe, he would have been set down as a madman, that gentleman will bring him only up to the and his prediction would have been regarded as the present time, and cannot carry him or us beyond mere vagary of an enthusiast; and if any gentleman this time, and I do not believe that he is, had told us, twenty years ago, that in 1867 there or that we are, sufficiently competent or have would be a railroad, not only one, but two, built sufficient sagacity and foresight to anticipate westward, and extending three or four hundred what may be the demands of the commerce miles west of the Missouri river, he would have of this State, what may be the wants of the been set down as equally visionary and unsound. people during the next twenty years and what There are many gentlemen here who will donbtlegislation may be rendered proper by the muta-less recollect that, although the subject of a tions of trade and commerce, and by those demands Pacific railroad has been talked of considerably, which will be occasioned by our increase, and debated, yet the number of people who and by the change of our position. Now, sir, we advocated that measure were very few until withmust not, it seems to me, in considering this ques-in a short time past. What do we find now tion, overlook the fact that we are not legislating to be the condition of things in the westor making a law which shall operate merely for one ern part of the United States? There year, for five years, or for ten years-that we are are at this moment in the course of active not making a law, or laying down a rule of action construction westward of the Missouri river, which can be rescinded, which can be modified, the two lines of railroad to which I have which can be changed by any other body occupy- alluded, one extending from the Missouri ing our position here within a short period of time river far into the interior of the State of and who may be induced by arguments and by Kansas-another railroad, starting from Omaha, new facts brought before them, to decide that our in the Territory of Nebraska, extending westplan of action or rule as laid down, ought not to be ward four hundred miles in the same direction. followed. If there were any power behind us which There is also a railroad in the course of active |