of the State stood ready to put their hands in their pockets to pay their share of the expense necessary for the construction of that great public work. Mr. HARDENBURGH-Did not the people of the State own that canal? one reason property goes up where these private enterprises are established. They afford facilities for produce to get to market. Wherever a farm. is located upon a railroad, it is nearer a market. In that way will any gentleman undertake to say that the people of the county of Jefferson were Mr. BAKER-I think I have stated that two not benefited by the construction of that road? or three times. If the gentleman observed what And could the question have been propounded to I said, the people of the State of New York the great mass of farmers of that day along that owned the canal. But, I inquire, what benefit road whether they would have allowed their was that to the poor widow residing in one of the towns to be bonded, there is no doubt but it southern tier of counties, whose property was would have been carried by an overwhelming maliable to be taxed for its construction, and who jority. They had a practical realization in the could never practically have any benefit from the construction of that road, of the facility of getting navigation of that canal? We cannot all be canal their produce to market and of the enhanced value captains; property must be taxed for its con- of their lands. Now, sir, the State, in its legislastruction, and all cannot derive important benefits tion for a long series of years, has contributed to from that public work. I know that, theoreti- the construction of roads and loaned its credit to cally, it is open for you and me and every other the construction of various railroad enterprises man to put his boat on the canal; but practically within' its limits. It has been stated here by have never been able to derive any immediate gentlemen that the State had made an absolute benefit otherwise than from living in central New donation of three millions of dollars to the New York, where the general rise of property has ben- York and Erie railroad, which I believe to be the efited me with others; but this rise has been at fact. It is known to gentlemen within this Conthe expense of the people of the southern tier of vention that the State loaned its credit to the Aucounties and of the St. Lawrence valley, as well burn and Syracuse road to the amount of two as those living in central New York on the canal. hundred thousand dollars; it loaned its credit to Now, I know the legal technical difference be- the Auburn and Rochester road to the amount tween a work belonging to the State and a of two hundred thousand dollars. There were work belonging to a private corporation. I will four hundred thousand dollars loaned to these come to that in a moment if the committee will private corporations for the purpose of aiding and indulge me. Prior to the construction of the assisting them in constructing a railroad which Erie canal, it is known by gentlemen conversant was intended to develop the physical resources of with the history of property in central New the country. Will any gentleman from Cayuga York that you could buy all the lands from Montcounty undertake to say that that county has not gomery county to Buffalo for about fifteen dollars been directly benefited by the construction of per acre. It is known that as soon as the canal these roads? Yet these roads were built upon was completed, or that it became a certainty in the credit of the State to a limited extent. I will the minds of the people that it would be com- not undertake to say that these roads have not pleted, that you could not buy an acre of land on refunded this money that was loaned by the that route for less than from thirty to eighty dol- State; probably they have. But the State loaned lars per acre. I may be too low in my figures. its credit, and these roads used it. This amendNow I will come to private corporations, and see ment which is sought to be voted down, proposes the effect that a corporation has had upon that that a town may loan its credit to a corporation same property. Sir, after the Erie canal was upon just such terms as it deems proper, just as completed, and after this series of continued lines the State has loaned its credit to several railroads. of railroad were completed from Albany to Buf- Now the New York and Erie Railroad is comfalo, land took another rise of more than sev-pleted, the Central railroad is completed, the enty-five per cent. I may be mistaken about Ogdensburgh and Rouse's Point railroad is comthe precise figures; but it went up ama- pleted-three great competing lines, constituting zingly, at least in the Mohawk valley and three great monopolies, monopolizing the entire in Central New York, But why? I will tell the carrying business from West to East. These gentleman why, by mentioning a little incident three great competing lines have secured their that occurred a few years ago in the county of connections with the great West; they have secured Jefferson. There are gentlemen within these their connections with the East. They want no halls who will, perhaps, remember the incident. further aid nor no more competition. Now, if the It was during the Irish famine. Grain went up State will allow me to put my hands into the to a very high price at our sea-ports instantly up- treasury-if the State will give me a fortune-I on the arrival of news by steamer that there was will agree that it shall be prohibited from giving a great famine in Ireland; and the grain and corn anybody else a fortune hereafter. That is the of the entire western part of the State of New principle upon which many gentlemen seem to York was rushed to market. In Jefferson coun-act. While some of these roads, part of which ty the farmers started their mills and got out their constitute the great New York Central, were runteams to get their corn to market at Rome, but ning and operating upon the credit of the State, before many of them could get to Rome with the little Susquehanna road was struggling to get their, grists of corn, the price of grain had gone even a foothold in the Legislature or anywhere down. Within three years after that, I think, it else; it was asking the Legislature to allow the was found necessary and quite easy to construct people to bond their towns and tax themselves the Rome and Watertown railroad. Now, that is for its construction. That was denied them. I remember very well when that question of a meeting held in this city, where the mayor came up here in the Legislature, a certain recommended the bonding of this city to make a prominent gentleman who had acted as chairman contribution of one hundred thousand dollars, and of a city mass meeting in this city, and who had in which address he held out to the people of this delivered a very eloquent address upon the pro-State that they would be benefited to the amount spective benefit to this city, in case the Susque- of three millions of dollars in the enhanced value hanna road was built, and had promised, I think, to subscribe one hundred thousand dollars on the credit of the city Mr. CORNING-Will the gentleman permit me to ask him a question? Has the New York Central ever received any aid from the State. A DELEGATE-Never. Mr. BAKER-If the gentleman understood me, I said that the State loaned its credit to the amount of two hundred thousand dollars to the Syracuse and Auburn road and two hundred thousand dollars to the Auburn and Rochester road; that they used that money for that purpose, but whether it had been refunded I was not advised. I take nothing back. I desire to ask the gentleman a question in return, if it is in order. Did these roads use the credit of the State for any length of time whatever? Mr CORNING-I understood they did. Mr. BAKER-And that is all a great many of these roads ask, except that they want to use the credit of the towns and counties, not the credit of the State. he of their property. Afterward and when that same gentleman was a member of the Legislature, he took strong grounds against State aid to the Susquehanna road, while mayor of the city of Albany, and presumptively representing the popular judgment of his constituency, was in favor of granting the aid of his municipality to the road to the amount of $100,000, but now while a member of Assembly, vehemently opposing even State aid to that roadbut this was after the New York Central and Erie had secured all they wanted. Now, it may have no meaning at all, or it may have just this meaning, that these great monopolies have a certain interest to subserve, and when that interest has been secured, when they have obtained what they asked, when certain localities have secured lines increasing the value of their property, they are willing to shut down the gates and not allow one dollar to come out of the treasury nor out of the pockets of the people themselves even, though they are willing to be taxed for the building up of any other locality. Now, when it is Mr. ALVORD-I would like to have the gen- said that these corporations are selfish, I concede tleman show me a law that does not require abso-it. We sometimes have to protect ourselves lutely in this bonding of towns that they take the stock of the road and nothing else in payment? Mr. BAKER-I am not now discussing any competing corporations to grow up in the same law that has been passed, I am discussing the State, to allow other corporations to be built up propriety of general provisions in the Constitution on the public credit, and if we cannot get it at merely permissive, I am not talking about the the hands of the State, get it at the hands of the detail of any law; if I were, I perhaps would people of the locality along the line, who are draw up some details that I think would meet the willing to be taxed. I say for one I will vote for case properely, and decide whether and upon prohibiting the Legislature from granting a dollar what terms counties and towns should loan their to any corporation, public or private, moneyed, credit. I am speaking of the propriety of prohib- charitable or religious. I believe it is one of the iting in all future time what this State has repeat-great sources of public corruption or-I will take edly done in favor of the holders of the most pow-that word back-bad public legislation. Mr. erful corporations and monopolies of this State. Chairman, the Chenango Valley road is now Mr. RATHBUN-I rise to a question of order. struggling for an existence; the people of that The gentleman is discussing the question of loan-valley-as beautiful a valley as there is in the ing the credit of the State; when the question before the committee is confined explicitly to the bonding of towns. I submit the gentleman is too broad in his argument. against the selfishness of corporations, by building and sustaining competing lines, that is, allow State of New York-ask permission to loan their credit for the purpose of constructing that road. Is it right and proper that people living north of the road should say you shall not have that right? Mr. BAKER-I believe the word "bonded" is Being conceded that it is right to grant the public not in the provision. The word "loan" is used. credit for the purpose of aiding and assisting such When the New York Central got ready to go into corporations, I say it is pretty late in the day business it was like a young man coming into his for gentlemen who represent the New York inheritance from a rich father. All it had to do and Erie road, which has received three milwas to put its cars on its tracks. Its business lions of the people's money without any return was furnished to its hand. This was not the case past or prospective, and for gentlemen who with the New York and Erie; it was not the case represent the New York Central, which has with the Ogdensburgh and Rouse's Point; it was built a portion of its line on the people's not the case with any other road within this money, to come here and say the people of State. I say that after these three great compet- the Susquehanna Valley and of the Chenango ing corporations, or monopolies as we may call valley, or any other locality, shall not have the them, had secured themselves, the Susquehanna right to tax themselves-not the State-to deroad was struggling for a foothold; it came here velop their resources. Now, it is said, by genand asked permission to bond its towns that they tleman, if you grant the right to towns that they might loan their credit for the purpose, and it will exercise the right improvidently. Now, I do was denied. I remember very well having in my not believe it. Neither do I believe that there is possession a pamphlet containing the proceedings a gentleman within the hearing of my voice who thinks that the people of a locality who are to be | pany or corporation, or to take or be interested immediately by the law, will be any less compe- in any stock therein." tent than the Legislature have been. I believe Mr. RUMSEY-I desire simply to say with rethat they will exercise a wise discretion in de-gard to this amendment that it does not interfere termining whether it will be expedient or inexpe- with any law which now exists allowing towns dient to aid any such enterprise. I am entirely to bond themselves for the benefit of any willing to trust the people. In answer to the railroad; it applies entirely to subsequent action gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] who seems to be discussing the details of a law, I am frank to say that I would prescribe such limits as to prevent abuses. I would leave the question to the majority of the tax payers in a locality to be affected, in such a manner that those who bear the burden would have the right to assume the necessary power in the matter. Now, it is said, we must protect the people, in their property, against this. One gentleman used language as though permitting a town to loan its credit and to raise a tax, or in any way to aid in the construction of a railroad, was to give some outside power or influence the power to take this property away. Why, the very proposition is to leave it. I want no better provision than to leave the capital of this State to its own protection. When we say we will deprive a man of the right to say how and where his money shall be invested in the development of the country where he lives, we take from him, in a certain sense, the right to say in what manner his property shall be invested. I have troubled the committee longer than I intended, I have spoken in a very desultory manner, but I have said pretty nearly all I wanted to say. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Alvord, and it was declared carried. Mr. E. BROOKS-I now offer the amendment I alluded to when upon the floor, to come in the fourth line of the second section after the word "corporation." Mr. BICKFORD-Will the gentleman give way a moment to allow a motion to strike out the whole section? on the part of the Legislature. I think if this So Mr. E. BROOKS-I will, if the gentleman de-grant the same right to inhabitants of a town to sires it. Mr. BICKFORD-Then I move to strike out the whole section. The CHAIRMAN-It is not now in order. There is an amendment pending. Mr. E. BROOKS-I then move my amendment. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment of Mr. E. Brooks, as follows: Insert after the word "corporation," in the fourth line, the following: "Except upon the consent of a majority of all the voters and two-thirds of the taxable persons representing two-thirds of the taxable property of such county, town or village appearing upon the last assessment roll." The question was put on the amendment of Mr. E. Brooks, and, on a division, was declared lost by a vote of 38 to 45. Mr. RUMSEY-I now propose this amendment as a substitute for the whole section. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment, as follows: "The Legislature shall not hereafter pass any law authorizing any county, town, city or village or other municipal corporation to give or appropriate money or property, or to lend its credit in any way, in aid of or to any private person, com engage in. If the majority think it is best to construct a race-course, a church, or anything else, the Legislature may authorize the majority in the town to bond the minority for all these objects. Aside from this question of expediency, I am opposed to this practice upon principle, and have rarely heard advanced in a deliberative assembly a proposition more offensive to my ideas of propriety. It is every way vicious. It asures to give to the majority of the inhabitants of the town the right to take and dispose of the private property of the minority, for other purposes than the necessary expenses of the government, without rendering any adequate compensation for the property thus taken away. It is true the laws provide that the towns shall have the stock of the railroad corporation for the bonds thus issued, but experience has shown that those are unavailable as a security, and under any circumstances, individuals ought not to be compelled to part with their property for the benefit of private corporations, except upon such terms as they elect. To compel them to do so in any other way is a more tyrannical exercise of the power of the majority, and there is no form of tyranny more offensive in its application than this. We are not to be told that the towns get com Mr. E. BROOKS-I am apprehensive that this amendment means a great deal more than appears upon its surface; and it is for that reason that I feel called upon, at this late hour, to call the attention of the committee to its meaning. Let me read it: pensation, they get only railroad stock, and, from contributing one dollar for any orphan the individual will find this a poor thing with asylum, hospital, or public charity whatever. which to pay his tax for these bonds. The Mr. RUMSEY-I will say to the gentleman railroad itself will have passed into other from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], that I think he hands by virtue of mortgages for other debts, is mistaken in that proposition. And that there and the bond debt alone will remain to the may be no mistake, I will say that I understand town to eat out the substance of the citizens the Committee upon the Powers and Duties of in the shape of taxation. Now, take this Al- the Legislature have made provision for such bany and Susquehanna railroad and look at charities as ought to be provided for; and if they its present condition as shown by its report to have not, the committee over which the gentlethe State Engineer and Surveyor. I think you man presides will no doubt make such provision will find it has upon its shoulders, after all for the cases they may think proper. it has received from bonds of towns and the $750,000 received by it from the State, a debt of over two millions of dollars, and the road is yet far from completion. I hope it may prove a success. It is in good hands, yet I fear that the original stockholders will in the end own but a very small share of the road. If they do they will be more fortunate than most stockholders of that class of railroads. But after the able review of this whole question, made by the gentleman from Ulster, I will not, at this late hour, longer detain the Convention, except to say I am astonished that amongst all the opponents of this | section in the Convention who have spoken in regard to it, I have not heard a solitary individual who has dared to address himself to the principle involved in the section. They all address themselves to the questien of developing the resources of the territory over which the railroad passes; but none speak of the impropriety of allowing the majority to appropriate the property of the minority for private corporations, without the consent of such minority. Mr. HADLEY-In behalf of the committee who had the temerity to introduce this article, I wish to say that the proposition now introduced as a substitute by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey] meets with the concurrence of that committee. We hope it may pass. Mr. ALVORD-I wish to say that I think the amendment offered by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey] should pass, as it is more appropriate in its language and application than could possibly be the section as amended. I hope, therefore, this substitute will prevail. Mr. E. BROOKS-I would like to ask 'the mover of this amendment if he intends to apply it merely to railroad subscriptions in towns, counties and cities, or whether he intends it to extend to great charities in the State, and in this by-way make an attack upon all public charities that may belong to the State of New York? "The Legislature shall not hereafter pass any law authorizing any county, town, city or village, or other municipal corporation to give or appropriate money or property, or to lend its credit in any way, in aid of or to any private person, company or corporation, or to take or be interested in any stock therein, except as in this Constitution is otherwise provided." If I understand the meaning of language, if this provision becomes a part of the Constitution of this State, it forbids the Legislature, for all time to come, from contributing one dollar for any of those great charities which have hitherto adorned and honored the State of New York. I hope, therefore, that the mover of this amendment will consent to confine it to those railroad corporations and appropriations of money in regard to which, we have had the discussion during to-day, and leave the charities to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature, or to the Committee on Charities, of which I have been made chairman by the partiality of the President, and make this question to bear entirely on the merits of the railroads. Mr. RUMSEY-Will the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E Brooks] allow me to say a few words. Mr. BROOKS - Certainly. Mr. RUMSEY-I will say to the gentleman that the railroad corporations have not been the only suckers upon the public treasury; there has been an almost interminable amount of calls upon the Legislature for bonding towns and counties and for every imaginable object; and when the amendment was framed by the committee, it was intended to cut off every proposition of that kind and to prevent the Legislature from authorizing their municipal corporations to do Mr. RUMSEY-I intended by that proposition anything more or less, with regard to public to prohibit towns, counties, cities and villages money than such as was actually required to from disposing of the funds of those corpora- enable them to carry on the ordinary operations tions for any purpose except the legitimate pur- of government. I will say further to the genposes of government, and that they should not tleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks], step outside of that. It does not in its terms that in directing that the city of or its effect prevent the city of New York or York or any other place should approany other place from appropriating all the funds priate its money with a view of carrying which may be necessary for the support of their poor, and making every proper provision for the purposes of government. Mr. E. BROOKS-If I understand it, the committee decided to prevent the Legislature New on the ordinary operations of the government of a city, or town or county, and in this is included its charities, they have a right now abundantly by the laws as they now exist to do everything that is necessary for the protection of the poor of their cities, or of their towns, or report this article to the Convention, and reof their counties. commend its adoption. Mr. E. BROOKS · We have a great many poor people in the city of New York to take care of besides these. Mr. RATHBUN-The gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] has spoken once, and I desire to say a few words? Mr. RUMSEY-If the gentleman will allow me, I am requested to put into that amendment these words "except as in this Constitution otherwise provided." I have no objection to put that in. The CHAIRMAN-The motion is not now in order. Are there any further amendments? Mr. CLINTON-I will not make a motion, but I will venture a suggestion. It strikes me, that as we have a Committee on Cities, their Organization, etc., it is hardly proper for us to include the word "cities" in the section which we have just passed. It strikes me that that ought to be omitted. Mr. BROOKS-I move to strike out the word "cities." Mr. RATHBUN-I hope not. I live in a city, and I do not want it stricken out. The question was put on the motion of Mr. E. Brooks, and it was declared lost. The SECRETARY read the last section as follows: Mr. RATHBUN-i rose merely to answer the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] in regard to the question which he put to the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey]. This amendment offered by the gentleman from Steuben is a section which was drawn and agreed upon by the Committee on the Powers and "Counties, towns and villages shall severally Duties of the Legislature-unanimously agreed possess and exercise such powers of local taxaupon by them, for the express place and pur- tion as now is, or hereafter may be prescribed pose for which it is now offered. The commit- by law." tee whose report is now under consideration reported a section to cover that ground. Mr. YOUNG-I move to strike out the sec tion. Mr. BICKFORD-I rise to a question of order. Mr. GREELEY-I move to strike out the word It is not in order to discuss a report of a com-" is," in the second line, and insert "are, so that mittee that has not yet been made. [Cries of it will read "such however, as now are or may question, question.] hereafter be prescribed by law." Mr. RATHBUN-1 am not discussing it. This was designed to operate precisely in the case where it is now offered-in regard to towns, cities and villages using their credit to build railroads, and for other purposes of that kind. The gentleman seems to think the Legislature are deprived of all power to appropriate money belonging to the State. If he will read it he will see that the whole of the section is drawn with a view to deprive the Legislature of the power to authorize cities, towns and villages, to bond themselves, and not in regard to the power of the Legislature to appropriate money. [Cries of question.] The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Rumsey, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 50 to 31. Mr. E. A. BROWN-I move that the committee now rise and report progress. [Cries of 66 no," "no."] I withdraw it. Mr. BICKFORD-I move to strike out the section as amended, and I call for a count on that motion. The CHAIRMAN-It is not in order. The section has been amended, and the question now recurs on the amendment as amended on motion of Mr. Rumsey. The CHAIRMAN-It will be so amended if there is no objection. The question was announced on the motion of Mr. Young. Mr. YOUNG-I withdraw the motion. Mr. BICKFORD-I wilf renew it. The scction is wholly unnecessary. Unless the Legislature are prohibited froni legislating, they may legislate as they have heretofore. The motion was put on the amendment of Mr. Bickford, and was declared lost. Mr. ALVORD-I move that the committee do now rise and report this article to this Conven tion. The CHAIRMAN-We have not adopted the whole of the article. The question was then put on the adoption of the last section, and it was declared adopted. Mr. ALVORD-I move that the committee rise, report this article to the Convention and recommend its passage. Mr. FULLERTON-Will the gentleman withdraw his motion for cne moment? Mr. ALVORD-I will. Mr. FULLERTON-I wish to suggest an amendment to the first section; a moment's attention will show its importance. At the last The question was then put on the amend- session of the Legislature an act was passed au .ment as amended, and it was declared adopted.thorizing a single election district in a town, or in Mr. BICKFORD-I now move to strike out a county, to bond itself to the amount of $60,000 the section as amended. for the purpose of building a railroad. As I understand the phraseology of the first section, it will not prohibit the Legislature from passing a similar act; and I think the first section could be amended so as to prevent anything of that kind. I would therefore suggest that the words "or other other territorial division" be inserted after the words "municipal corporations." The question was put on the motion of Mr. Bickford and it was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 31 to 53. Mr. BICKFORD-I now move to amend by adding at the end "except railroad corporations." The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Bickford, and it was declared lost. Mr. FIELD-I move that the committee rise, Mr. BICKFORD-I want to say one word to the gentleman who introduced this amendment |