Imagens das páginas
PDF
ePub

Mr. FLAGLER-The gentleman advocates the printing of two thousand copies of this report because we will thus be sowing it broadcast throughout the State. I reply that two thousand will be a very small amount of seed for so large a field, and this sowing broadcast will be done by the public press of the State, and I shall vote against the printing of extra copies. I believe it is not necessary, and I believe, also, if we establish this precedent, it will serve as a precedent for a large expenditure of public money.

Mr. SHERMAN-Allow me to ask the Chairman of the committee, for information, what would be the probable cost of these two thousand copies, my impression is that it would not be a large sum.

Mr. SEAVER-As regards the cost I am unable to say precisely what it will be, but I appre. hend the sum will not be very large.

The question was then put on the motion of Mr. E. Brooks, and it was declared carried.

The question was put on the passage of the resolution reported by the committee, as amended by the motion of Mr. E. Brooks and it was declared lost by the following vote:

The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows:

Resolved, That the sessions of the Convention on Mondays commence at half-past seven o'clock P. M. Mr. GREELEY called for the ayes and noes on the resolution.

A sufficient number seconding the call, the ayes and noes were ordered.

The question was put on the resolution, and it was declared adopted by the following vote:

Ayes-Messrs. C. L. Allen, Andrews, Armstrong, Baker, Ballard, Barnard, Beadle, Bergen, E. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Carpenter, Chesebro, Clinton, Cochran, Comstock, Conger, Corning, C. C. Dwight, Eddy, Fowler, Frank, Fullerton, Garvin, Gerry, Gross, Hardenburgh, Hiscock, Hitchman, Huntington, Jarvis, Kernan, Ketcham, Krum, Larremore, Law, Livingston, Loew, Lowrey, Masten, Mattice, Morris, Paige, A. J. Parker, Pond, Potter, Prosser, Robertson, Rogers, Rolfe, A. D. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Seymour, Silvester, Sheldon, Sherman, Strong, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Wickham, Young-64.

Ayes-Messrs. N. M. Allen, Armstrong, Baker, Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, N. M. Allen, Barnard, Beadle, Beals, Bell, Bergen, Bickford, Alvord, Axtell, Barker, Barto, Beals, Bell, BickE. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Carpenter, Comstock, ford, Bowen, E. P. Brooks, E. A. Brown, Case, Corning, T. W. Dwight, Eddy, Evarts, Fowler, Cooke, T. W. Dwight, Ely, Endress, Evarts, Fuller, Gould, Gross, Hammond, Huntington, Flagler, Folger, Francis, Fuller, Gould, Graves, Jarvis, Kinney, Krum, Landon, A. Lawrence, Greeley, Hadley, Hammond, Harris, Hitchcock, Livingston. Loew, Lowrey, McDonald, Merritt, Houston, Hutchins, Kinney, Landon, Lapham, Opdyke, Paige, Pond, Potter, President, Prindle, A. Lawrence, A. R. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Prosser, Reynolds, Rolfe, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Ludington, McDonald, Merritt, Merwin, Mouell, Sevmour, Silvester, Sherman, Spencer, Stratton, Strong, Tappen, M. I. Townsend, S. Townsend, Weed, Williams-55.

Noes-Messrs. A. F. Allen, C. L. Allen, Alvord, Andrews, Axtell, Ballard, Barker, Barto, Bowen, F. Brooks, W. C. Brown, Burrill, Case, Chesebro, Clinton, Cochran, Conger, Cooke, C. C. Dwight, Ely, Endress, Field, Flagler, Folger, Francis, Frank, Fullerton, Garvin, Gerry. Graves, Greeley, Hadley, Hardenburgh, Harris, Hiscock, Hitchcock, Hitchman, Houston, Hutchins, Kernan, Ketcham, Lapham, Larremore, Law, A. R. Lawrence, M. H. Lawrence, Ludington, Masten, Mattice, Merwin, Monell, Morris, A. J. Parker, Rathbun, Robertson, Rogers, Rumsey, A. D. Russell, Schell, Schoonmaker, Schumaker, Sheldon, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Wickham, Young-65.

Mr. KINNEY - I would like, if in order, to ask leave of absence for Mr. Root, of Oswego, for one week from to-day, on account of ill health.

No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. BERGEN-I would like to ask for indefinite leave of absence for Mr. Murphy, who is detained home by sickness.

No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. BARTO-I ask for leave of absence for Mr. Magee for an indefinite length of time, on account of personal illness.

No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. SILVESTER I wish to ask leave of absence for myself for to-morrow and the day after, on account of business which must be attended to No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. TAPPEN called up for consideration the resolution offered by him yesterday.

Opdyke, President, Prindle, Rathbun, Reynolds, Rumsey, L. W. Russell, Seaver, Spencer, Stratton, Van Campen, Van Cott, Wakeman, Wales, Williams-57.

Mr. COMSTOCK offered the following resolution:

Resolved, That the Committee on the Salt Springs be authorized to hold a sitting at the salt reservation, with power to administer oaths and examine witnesses as they may deem necessary, and that, for the purpose of holding such sitting, the members of the committee have leave of absence from Thursday evening until Saturday of this week.

The question was put on the resolution, and it was declared adopted.

Mr. MERRITT-I have a resolution which I wish to offer, which has for its object the facilitating the business of this Convention, and I hope it will meet with the concurrence of the members of this body.

Resolved, That when the Committee of the Whole shall resume the consideration of the article reported by the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., debate thereon shall be limited to five minutes to one speaker for, and one against each amendment; and after four hours shall have been thus spent, the vote shall be taken on the amendment then pending, and such as may be offered without further debate, and when the article as amended shall have been reported to the Convention, it shall be immediately considered, and be made the special order for each day, immediately after the approval of the Journal, until disposed of.

The hour of two o'clock having arrived, the Convention took a recess until half-past seven o'clock.

EVENING SESSION.

The Convention re-assembled at half-past seven o'clock.

The motion was laid over under the rule.

The PRESIDENT aunounced the peuding question to be on the adoption of the resolution of Mr. Merritt.

Mr. WEED-It certainly seems to me this | next is to speak for the other side of the question. resolution should be amended. As I stated, when The great body of the Convention might as well the resolution in relation to the discussion on the have staid at home if this is to be the way report of the Committee on the Right of Suffrage things are to be done, and have let the committees was before the Convention, we have not yet got come here and nobody else. I hope this Couventhrough the first section, and there are other very tion will allow discussions upou subjects we important questions in that report, which cannot have now before us, that are among the most imbe discussed and cannot be understood, by dis-portant that can be discussed in this Conventioncussions of ten minutes in this body. As I un- the representation of the people of the State in derstand the resolution of the gentleman the Senate and Assembly of the State. from St. Lawrence, he proposes to limit the discussion in this Committee of the Whole, upon this question of the change of the districts of members of Assembly in this State, and upon all the important questions in his report, to one speech of five minutes, on the part of the party moving an amendment, and one of five minutes Mr. ALVORD-I desire to move a reconof the opposite side. It seems to me if this report sideration of the vote by which the Convention is to be adopted, and we are to consider it, such determined that upon every Monday they would a resolution as this should not pass. We have dis- meet at half-past seven o'clock P. M., instead of cussed for days the first section of the report. I every alternate Monday, as under the former reg myself have not taken any part in that discussion, ulation. and I do not believe that discussion has been prolonged to an improper length upon the question of the organization of the Senate, and now, at this time, instead of a resolution asking for a vote upon the sections we have discussed at Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I do not desire to a certain hour, and then to proceed to the other extend my remarks upon the question before the sections-we find a resolution here which compels Convention. I had stated that we had one very us to limit the debate upon the other and general important question that we had not discussed at questions, to five minutes upon a side. It seems all, the question, that is, the mode of electing our to me it is entirely improper. Of course, if the members of Assembly or the popular branch of the majority see fit to adopt such a resolution, we have Legislature, and that certainly we should need but to submit; but it does seem to me, if the more time than was proposed by this resolution. gentleman appreciates his report and its import-I do not believe we need be in a hurry about it at ance, there should be a graduated scale, and we should have twenty minutes, certainly upon the organization of the Assembly, for a short time at least, so that a man voting upon the subject could understand it properly, or give some reason for his vote. One other reason why I think we should not adopt the resolution-we have had no sort of intimation from the chairman, or the committee he represents, why he makes these changes; there was no written report from that committee giving the reasons for these changes, and I defy him or any other gentleman to give satisfactory reasons in five minutes, and I say it is a shame to try to limit the opposition to that report, or to any section, to a reply of five minutes.

the present moment, because I think the right of debate has not been abused, and that we shall get through it without any difficulty if we go on with the business. So believing, I move to lay the resolution on the table.

The question was put on the motion, to lay on the table and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 58 to 22.

Mr. FOLGER-But eighty votes are cast; there is not a quorum voting.

Mr. BARNARD-The President has not voted; his vote will make up a quorum. So the motion was declared carried. Mr. MERRITT - Is it proper for me to withdraw the resolution?

The PRESIDENT-It is; no action has yet been taken.

Mr. MERRITT — I withdraw the resolution and offer the following as a substitute:

Mr. M. L. TOWNSEND-I hope the resolution will not be adopted. Eminent courtesy has been extended to the gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt] to enable him to speak once, twice, thrice, or as often as he pleased almost, Resolved, That, unless debate shall sooner terwith regard to so much of the report as has minate, the Committee of the Whole shall, at one already been discussed, and I think it comes-my o'clock P. M. to-morrow, rise and report to the friend will pardon me for saying it-with an ex- Convention the reported article from the Commitceedingly ill grace from him now, to propose to tee on the Organization of the Legislature, etc., limit this discussion as proposed by this resolu- with all the amendments made in the Committee tion. For one moment let us look at the position of the Whole, and that the said report of the in which we shall be placed. The individual who Committee of the Whole, with amendments offered happens to catch the eye of the Chair, who has and to be offered, shall be immediately considered the readiest voice and the quickest spring, and and be made the special order for each day, imme. gets upon the floor and speaks for or against any diately after the approval of the Journal, until proposition, he is to embody the whole mind of disposed of. the house that can be brought to bear upon the Mr. ALVORD-I am in favor, as much as the subject that happens to be under discussion; and gentleman from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt], or the individual who succeeds in getting the floor any other gentleman on this floor, of expediting

[Mr. Alvord] in his remarks pretended to say how it should be done, but he failed to offer any proposition which might effect this end.

Mr. ALVORD-I merely wish to suggest to the gentleman that I will draw up a resolution if he desires, but I supposed it should come from the committee, rather than from me.

Mr. MERRITT-Under the existing rule when we come into Convention, debate will be allowed pro and con, by two persons five minutes upon each proposition. I understood some gentleman here who was in the minority, intimated that it would be well to limit the debate in Committee of the Whole for the purpose of going over this article. It was with that view that Ï proposed we should limit the debate in the Committee of the Whole to twenty minutes to each proposition; after that, when it comes into Convention, there will be five minutes for two persons, who wish to speak on amendments to the proposition. It seems to me we must have some limit. Upon putting this motion I call for the ayes and noes, for the purpose of relieving the committee, at least, of the responsibility for delay.

the business of the Convention; and I will go in | committee desire is to relieve themselves from favor of the proposition if the gentleman will re- that responsibility. Now, we must have a conduce it into form so that there shall be debate clusion some time. The gentleman from Onondaga upon each one of the sections in this article, that debate to be longer or shorter, as the interest of the article may indicate; and the speeches in regard to the matter shall be limited to a time certain, so that in the aggregate of the time there shall be a fixed time upon which we can come out of Committee of the Whole, with the privilege, in each individual case, when upon each section, the amount of time shall have been consumed in debate, there shall be opportunity of laying on the table of the committee amendments to the proposition without debate, and that the vote upon the incoming of the matter in the Convention shall be taken with debate, if the Convention see fit, aud without the interposition of any amendment other than has been before the Committee of the Whole. In this way a fair examination of the article under consideration will have been had, and we shall have been enabled to speak to each and every section. But under the arrangement of the proposition of the gentleman as it was on the report of the Committee on Suffrage, we never got beyond the beginning in the Committee of the Whole and we merely double the work on it, so that in fact, in Convention, as well as in Committee of the Whole, we double the labors of the investigation of the different matters con. nected with the report. Now, my idea, and I think it is according to the strict parliamentary practice which has been had heretofore, in regard to these matters, and will facilitate business, is to determine in regard to each section, how much time shall be employed in Committee of the Whole giving opportunity for all amendments that may be necessary, ending with the aggregate of time thus employed upon the bill in Committee of the Whole, aud on which they shall conclude their labors; so they will be enabled to report affirmatively upon each and every proposition, and then come into the Convention. The Convention, under a previous rule, if they desire it, have entire control of the matter, confining the action of the Convention, so far as the amendments are concerned, directly to matters which have been proposed in Committee of the Whole. This manner of proceeding will facilitate business in regard to this matter; and if adopted in regard to every one of the bills before us, will very much shorter the time of our labors.

[blocks in formation]

Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND - Why not go into committee now for the next hour and a half for discussion on this question?

Mr. SCHOONMAKER-I move to lay the resolution on the table.

Mr. GREELEY-I ask the ayes and noes on that.

Mr. FOLGER-I move the previous question upon the adoption of the resolution, and I suppose that will take precedence of the motion to lay on the table.

The PRESIDENT-It does take precedence. The question is shall the main question be now put?

Mr. E. BROOKS-Before the Chair puts that question I submit, as a point of order, unless we have a rule that is not within my own mind, as a member of the Committee on Rules, that even after the previous question is moved, before there is a second, it is in order to lay on the table.

The PRESIDENT- The Chair does not so understand the rule.

The question was then put on the motion for the previous question, and it was declared carried.

The question was then put on the adoption of the resolution offered by Mr. Merritt, and, on a division, it was declared lost by a vote of 26 to 60.

The Convention then resolved itself into the Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., Mr. FULLER, of Monroe, in the chair.

The CHAIRMAN-The pending question is upon the amendment offered by way of substitute Mr. MERRITT-I regret exceedingly that by by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. Parker], to the offering of a resolution looking to the facili- the amendment of the gentleman from Kichtating of business in this Convention I should so mond [Mr. E. Brooks], as amended upon the disturb the ordinary peaceful and quiet and lamb-motion of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballike gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Town-lard], in committee.

send]. I regret exceedingly he should be so dis. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I ask that the question terbed. The only desire of the committee is to may be divided on the first part of the propos:facilitate business, and any mode that will tend to tion, and voted upon separately.

that end will meet our hearty concurrence.

We The SECRETARY read the first proposition as

do feel to a certair extent responsible for follows:

urging forward action upon this report. All the SEC. 2. The Legislature for 1868 shall divide

the State into eight senate districts, to be num-it. It must not be forgotten that in regard to the bered from one to eight inclusive, each district to contain, as nearly as may be, an equal number of inhabitants excluding aliens. No county shall be divided except it shall contain a greater population than is necessary for one senate district.

Mr. HATCH-That has been voted down practically, once.

The CHAIRMAN-I think not. The ques tion is on the first part of the amendment.

Senate of this State the characters of these gentlemen present a picture that is one-half of the history of the State. I admit they are characters to be reverenced and respected. But do gentlemen expect to return to a system by which those characters were sent here? Do they expect to have a Senate which is elected by the property holders only? Are they looking for a conservative body elected by the tax payers only? I imagine the body they are looking for can only be obtained in that way. Do they propose to go back to that system? No gentleman proposes in terms to do that. But I suspect, if they were to avow their real sentiments, they would say they would be willing to return to that if they could.

Mr. BARKER-Will my colleague allow me to ask him whether he has heard any gentleman suggest that?

Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I would be glad if the gentlemau did not put his question so directly, because the answer might implicate some gentleman on this floor.

Mr. BARKER-I apprehend any gentleman will excuse my colleague.

Mr. VAN CAMPEN - There has been a good deal of discussion upon the question upon which we are now about to vote-the question between single districts and large districts. The ground has been pretty thoroughly gone over. Gentle men on both sides have assumed their positions with a great deal of confidence. I might satisfy myself if I voted "yea" or "nay" on the propo. sition. But as the question is one of so much im portance that it underlies the whole system of our government, and the arguments which have been adduced here are of that character, in my opinion, I therefore take this occasion to express my entire dissent, not only from the proposition, but from the arguments which have been offered in support of it. In my opinion, if there is any one principle that is, or should be well set- Mr. VANCAMPEN-It is claimed here, you tled, it is the principle of single districts. should elect men that would not be influenced by For the purpose of this discussion it has been con- minor considerations. I ask if you can correct ceded that the Legislature should be organized with that evil by electing them from a district as large as a Senate and Assembly. For the further purpose our judicial districts? Not at all. Any gentleof this discussion it has been conceded that an man familiar with the machinery that is used in Assembly should consist of about 128 members, a making nominations will tell you, you cannot little more or a little less; that the Senate should correct the evil at all. It necessitates this thing; consist of 32 members. If those questions are it establishes a central clique, and all nominations conceded, in my judgment the work of this are figured out by that central clique, and any Convention upon that question is settled. The gentleman who wants a nomination will have to balance of the work becomes a logical con- apply to that clique. It is no new thing. It is done clusion established upon these premises. already; what would be the result of it? Mr. A., If we have settled that 105, 000, electors who wants a nomination in another district, would in this State are entitled to one member you have propose himself to the central head, and the real settled the whole question. All that is left to effect would be in my district, the Buffalo Express this Convention after that, is the apportioning of would tell us who wanted to be nominated here these districts, contiguity of territory, contiguity not there, or there. That is the way the system of electors, the creation of counties, and the sub- would work. The whole work would be laid out division of counties into political divisions of the by the central head, and very likely as it was laid State. The arguments offered here in favor of out it would be done. What were the arguments large districts astonish me. If they prove any- that were used in favor of the large district systern? thing at all what do they prove? They prove They were that it would make the Senator indepenus incapable of self-government. When I return dent of the elector. It was in effect to make the serto my district I must say that the arguments we vant independent of his master. It was to make offered here were such, that if they went to estab- the representative independent of the persons he lish anything, they established the fact that the represented. Now, we think a great deal of indepeople of my district are not able to determine pendence in the district where I live; but we who shall represent them in the Senate. I can do not think much of that kind of independence. say nothing else than that it is a proposition to It is not the kind we are after. If we have any take out of their hands by indirection what no servants we want them directly responsible to us. man dares attempt directly; and to do by circum- We do not want a divided responsibility; we do locution what they dare not propose by direct not want any Mr. A. or Mr. B., who will say, it is terms to accomplish. That is what it is. It is not my fault, but Mr. C.'s fault. We think we are no more, no less, than that. I respect talent; I capable of sending a responsible representative. respect learning; I respect dignity, and I re- If we are not, it is our own fault. We do not member in my boyhood days of standing in the ask you to sympathize with us, we do not ask Senate and listening to the addresses of your interference at all, in providing a system of gentlemen who addressed that Senate, not furnishing us with candidates. Now, you cannot only as counselors, but as gentlemen who dis- procure talent, you cannot procure diguity, you cussed a question as in a court of errors cannot procure ability in any greater degree in a with measured sentences and cadences. They large district than you can in a small district. impressed me in such a way I have never forgotten You cannot overcome local minor considerations

in that way. It is only by putting the responsi- most simple and direct, to accomplish the objects bility upon each of the districts and allowing them for which we are here. Except that the State of to select their men and making them responsible New York is a large property holder, our duties to that district. Then they will be faithful to would be extremely simple here. The fact that the district if they are vigilant, because the old the State has one of the most valuable properties maxim is none the less true now-"Eternal vigi- on the globe creates the necessity and puts duties lance is the price of liberty." What is it that upon us that are outside of the ordinary functions produces the corruption charged in this Legisla-of government. We as a State have departed ture? I am not here as an accuser, but it is said from the simplo functions of government; and very great malfeasances obtain here in this cham-whether wise or unwise it is not necessary to ber and the other, that are chargeable to the single discuss now, but such is the fact. The questions district system. No, sir, they are chargeable to growing out of that fact are such as are before us other causes. There were vicious provisions in to-day. The question of the representation very the Constitution, and they have brought forth their properly belongs to the simple functions of govfruits. Sir, it is the mammoth corporations that ernment. While I go for giving those things to have grown up in this State that, among other the people to allow them to act directly upon them, things, have produced corruption here. It is the I am in favor of strengthening the Executive. franchises they have sought here that have brought | I therefore am willing to incorporate the prohundreds and thousands of dollars to corrupt this visions which are precautionary in their character, legislation. Gentlemen come here seeking to and which, in their effect, must act in a conservaobtain franchises by which they can put fortunes tive way to the extent that States are willing to in their own pockets. It is a well known fact that incorporate such provisions with reference to the these corporations were here for that purpose, Executive. That is the place to get your conservaand those men who come here for the purpose of tive influence. The time has gone by for you to seeking their own profit and gain, think it perfectly get it anywhere else. You cannot do it. It is proper to rob these corporations if they can do it. among the things that are past; oblivion is over That is the principle that has manifested itself here. them. It only astonishes and surprises me that The whole system of provisions in that Constitution. gentlemen should come here and propose to return save these single districts, have operated to pro- to what has been so thoroughly condemned. duce that corruption. The system of canal I remember the condition of things existing management in this State, and the canal claims under the old system. They are not new to me; that have been put through here at five times they have not passed out of my recollection. their value, has corrupted the Legislature. I ap- any political folly could be committed by this peal to this Convention that the statements that Convention it would be returning to that system. have been made are not true, and if, from their Mr. BELL- I am not a little surprised at the own observation and the common sense of this turn this debate is taking. I had hoped when Convention, they are not convinced that the the gentleman from Richmond [Mr. E. Brooks] arguments I have given are true. I object to rose to a point of order, claiming that this was an having the large district system foisted on us equivalent question to that settled by the amend by false inferences. I object to gentlemen attain, ment of the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Baling an end by circumlocution that they dare not lard], that the Chair would so rule, and that we attain indirectly. I cannot go home to my con- would have passed over the point of large or small stituents permitting such a measure to pass with- Senate districts and discuss some other section in out raising my voice against it. If it does pass, the report. I have never been in the habit of cannot go home to my constituents and advise making a factious opposition when debate was them to submit to it, because it is based upon ar-closed and the question fairly taken and I was guments impeaching their integrity and their capability to manage their own affairs.

Mr. MERRITT-I would like to ask the gentleman a question. I would like to know how lately he has heard from his constituency, because I understood him to indorse this report, and I am happy to say to cordially indorse it.

If

found to be in a minority. I do not see the propriety of the majority-those who voted for the small districts-opening this discussion. I was among those, sir, that favored large senate districts, and gave my reasons for so doing; we approached a vote last evening, and the vote was largely in favor of the small senMr. VAN CAMPEN-The gentleman's state- ate districts, and with that I am content. ment is true, but I am very happy to say that II submit to the majority in all cases, but I do not have arrived at the conclusion which I give to see the propriety now of discussing this question you to-night after full consideration. That is the and discussing this same proposition any longer. answer I have to make to the gentleman. We I had relied on many gentlemen who came to me, must not pass upon a question fundamental to the and with whom I had conversed, to sustain the interests of this State without a thorough analysis large districts. Many of my democratic friends of all the propositions involved in it. This is a were in favor of the large districts; they talked government for the people and of the people. I for the large districts, but they voted for the have not lost confidence in the people. I trust small ones, and I do not think that we should every step we shall take, we shall go forward inti- now endeavor to change that vote. If they mating that we do trust in the people. I protest have sought to effect party purposes by it, as against these imputations that it becomes neces- far as the republican party is concerned cersary to go in any other way to the people tainly they are not to be injured in the matter; for these nominations, except in the most simple they certainly have an opportunity of choosing as and direct manner, for provisions that are many Senators by the small district system as

« AnteriorContinuar »