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development of the resources thereof," or of any ]. act to which said act is supplemental, or of any act supplemental to or amendatory of said chapter 236

Resolved, That the Comptroller be, and he is hereby, requested to inform this Convention what State of New York or United States stock, if any, and in what amount, has been deposited with him, and the time when the same was so deposited as security for taxes on lands, pursuant to section. 5 of chapter 236 of the Laws of 1863, entitled "An act to encourage and facilitate the construction of a Railroad along the Upper Hudson into the Wilderness in the northern part of this State, and the development of the Resources thereof."

Resolved, That the State Engineer and Surveyor be requested to communicate to this Convention a statement showing the quantity of lands sold by the "Sackett's Harbor and Saratoga railroad company," the "Lake Ontario and Hudson River railroad company," and the "Adirondack company," or by any and every other company having or claiming to have or to have had and enjoyed the franchises of the corporation or corporations aforesaid, with the location and description of said lands, if any, and the names of the grantees thereof.

Resolved, That the State Engineer and Surveyor be requested to inform this Convention what evidences, if any, have been filed in his office of the construction and operation of the railroad mentioned in the fifth section of chapter 236 of the Laws of 1863.

Which were laid over under the rule.

Mr. BICKFORD-I wish to ask leave of absence from this evening until ten o'clock Tuesday morning. I have received a letter stating that my wife and child are ill, and if the Convention will give me this leave of absence it will give me two days instead of one.

Objection being made, the question was put on granting Mr. Bickford leave of absence, and it was declared carried.

Mr. BELL-I am requested to ask leave of absence for the remainder of this week, for Mr. Merrill, of Wyoming, he having been called home by a telegram.

There being no objection, leave was granted. The PRESIDENT presented a communication from Richard O'Gorman, counsel to the corporation of New York, in answer to a resolution of the Convention of August 3.

Which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

Mr. KRUM- I ask leave of absence until to-morrow.

There being no objection, leave was granted. Mr. SEAVER-I ask unanimous consent that the several resolutions offered by me a few moments since may be now considered.

Mr. E. P. BROOKS offered the following resolution:

Resolved, That on and after Tuesday next, this Convention will commence its daily sessions at nine o'clock A. M., subject to the rule adopted by this Convention as to adjournments on alternate Saturdays and the meetings on Mondays.

The question was put upon the resolution of Mr. E. P. Brooks, and it was declared lost.

The Convention then resolved itself into Committee of the Whole on the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., Mr. ARCHER, of Wayne, in the chair.

The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be on section 4 of the report of the committee.

The SECRETARY proceeded to read the section as follows:

SEC. 4. The Assembly shall consist of one hun. dred and thirty-nine members who shall be chosen by counties, and shall be apportioned among the several counties of the State, as nearly as may be, according to the number of inhabitants thereof, who are citizens of the State, and shall hold office for one year. Each county shall be entitled to at least one member, except that the counties of Fulton and Hamilton shall, together, elect, until the population of the county of Hamilton shall, according to the ratio, entitle it to a member. No new county shall be erected unless its population shall entitle it to a member. The first apportionment of members of Assembly shall be made by the Legislature at its first session after the adoption of this Constitution, upon the enumeration of the inhabitants of this State, who are citizens thereof, made in the year one thousand eight hundred and sixty-five. A like apportionment shall be made by the Legislature at its first session after every such enumeration. Every apportionment when made shall remain unaltered until another enumeration shall be made.

Mr. MERWIN-I offer the following substitute: SEC. 4. The Assembly shall consist of one hundred and twenty-eight members, who shall be annually elected. The members of Assembly shall be apportioned among the several counties of the State by the Legislature, as nearly as may be, according to the number of their respective inhabitants, excluding aliens, and shall be chosen by single districts. The apportionment as now established by law shall remain until another enumeration and apportionment as hereinafter provided.

The Legislature at its first session after the return of every enumeration shall re-apportion the members of Assembly among the several counties of the State, in the manner aforesaid, and the boards of supervisors in such counties as may be entitled, under such apportionment to more than one member, shall assemble at such time as may The question was put on the resolutions of be provided by law, and divide such counties Mr. Seaver and they were declared adopted. into assembly districts equal to the number Mr. FOLGER-I ask leave of absence for my of members of Assembly to which such colleague from the twenty-sixth district, Mr. Lapham. He has received a letter making it neces sary for him to leave at one o'clock and fifteen minutes, and remain away until Tuesday.

There being no objection, leave was granted.

counties shall be cutitled, and shall cause to be filed in the offices of the Secretary of State, and the clerks of their respective counties, a description of such Assembly districts, specifying the number of cach dis

trict and the population thereof, according to the and a more honest and intelligent representatation last preceding State enumeration, as near as can in the lower branch of the Legislature than we be ascertained. Each assembly district shail cou-have heretofore had. And I know of no better tain, as nearly as may be, an equal number of in- means of accomplishing this most desirable rehabitants, excluding aliens, and shall consist of sult, than by going back to the old system of convenient and contiguous territory, but no town electing the members of Assembly by counties. I shall be divided in the formation of such districts. believe that a great majority of the candid and The apportionment and districts so to be made observing citizens of this State, who have given shall remain unaltered until another enumeration any attention to the matter, will unite în declaring shall be taken under the provisions of the pre- that the small district system, which was estabceding sectiou. Each county shall be entitled to lished by the Constitution of 1846, is a failure. at least one member, except that the counties of Under the first Constitution of this State, as well Fulton and Hamilton shall together elect until the as under the Constitution of 1821, they were population of the county of Hamilton shall, ac- chosen by counties, and then we had men of great cording to the ratio, entitle it to a member. No ability, honesty and integrity; men whose influnew county shall be erected unless its population ence was felt in behalf of all that was wise, right shall entitle it to a member. and good in government; men of whom the State Mr. MERWIN-It will be seen that this might well be proud, and whose names will long amendment leaves the provisions of the Constitu- be remembered by a grateful people. But our tion as they now are. It provides for one hun- members of Assembly have gradually become dred and twenty-eight members to be elected by worse and worse, until now few respectable men single districts, the apportionment and distribu- care to hold the office. I do not mean to tion of them to remain as they are now, so that say that there are not some able, high-minded, no new apportionment will need to be made by and honorable men in the Assembly every year, the Legislature. In my opinion, a larger number but I do mean to say that these are the exception, would be preferable, I think that would be more and that as a rule, the great majority of the memconsistent with the spirit of our institutions; still bers are in almost every respect inferior to the men many of those whose opinions I respect differ from we had under the old system. And I think eveme, and I think, perhaps, upon the whole, it is ry reflecting man will bear me out in this asserbetter to retain the number we now have. It tion. This I attribute, in a great measure, to the may be more satisfactory to the people, and will fact that they are elected in small assembly disnot be inaugurating any change in that respect. tricts. Under the present system it does not It will also be seen that the system of single dis- matter much how little a man may be qualified tricts is retained. That question has been dis- for the position, or how ignorant or depraved he cussed in another aspect, but the same arguments may be, if he can gather enough of the same in regard to that question as to senate districts sort, like himself around him, he can, by political will apply more forcibly here. I have stated in and other influences, succeed in getting a nomianother place all that I care to say upon nation, and be elected. This is so not only in cities, this question, and I think that it is the more cor- but I understand from a distinguished member rect and just plan to adopt. I think it would be of this body, who belongs to the party in the mamore satisfactory to the people, and will retain jority here, that it is, in a great measure, equally the elements which we desire to attain in the true of the rural districts. Now it seems to me, constitution of the Assembly. There will be a re- that if they are elected by general ticket throughsponsibility about it which you cannot get if you out the county, these direct personal influences have large districts. There are in the State cannot be brought to bear so readily nor so effectwenty-nine counties that elect more than one tually. The votes of the better class of the commember; there being sixty counties in the State--munity will be more apt to tell, because the other or really fifty-nine, inasmuch as Fulton and Ham-class will not be able to make such combined and ilton elect together—and, of these, twenty-nine united efforts in behalf of their favorite candihave more than one member, and these twenty- dates. Money, which is so often all-powerful in nine comprise at least four-fifths of the inhabi- small districts, and before which obstacles, seemtants of the State. Also, inasmuch as we have ingly insurmountable, give way like ice before the adopted the single senate districts, if we elect the summer's sun, will in a great measure be useless Assemblymen by counties we will have the anom-in a county canvass. Candidates will be comaly of having assembly districts larger than senate pelled to rely more on their previous reputation, districts; which, in a number of instances, it for an election; and the result will be, that we seems to me, will work badly. I think the will have a much abler body of men. Men of acamendment I have suggested is right, and I hope knowledged ability, and high standing in society, it will prevail. who would scorn to resort to the trickery, the Mr. LOEW-I am opposed to the amendment low cunning, and the improper and illegal use of of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Merwin], money which is rendered absolutely necessary in and in favor of electing members of Assembly order to secure an election in a small district, from counties, as reported by the majority of the would be willing to become candidates if their committee. I do not desire at this time to enter claims could be fairly presented for the considerinto any lengthy argument upon this subject, but ation and judgment of their fellow-citizens, withsimply to give utterance to a few thoughts that out any necessity on their part of going through have suggested themselves to my mind. I pre- a degrading canvass. This, I apprehend, can sume all will agree that our best efforts should be only be done by electing them on a genedirected and brought to bear to secure a better ral county ticket, whereby every elector is

enabled to decide unbiased upon the merits | Senator would represent, two or three times, the and demerits of all the candidates in his population and area of territory that the Assemcounty, and cast his vote for those whom he blymen from those counties would represent. may think best qualified. Permit me now, Mr. Several of the counties form each a senatorial Chairman, to notice very briefly, the objections district, and then the Senator and Assemblymen which I have heard urged against that mode of would each represent the county. But nowhere electing them. The first is, that they will not except in New York is a senate district composed represent the views and sentiments of the people of less than one county, and consequently nonearly so well, as if they were elected from small where but there could an assembly district be districts. There would be force in this objection, larger than a senate district. If we elect Senaif there was a great diversity of interest between tors by the present system, and Assemblymen different parts of those counties who are entitled by counties, we will only have thirty-two senate to more than one member. So far as cities are districts, while we will have sixty assembly concerned, every representative in the Legisla districts, being nearly double the number. It ture, as a general thing, really represents the seems to me, therefore, that there would be no whole city, and not the particular assembly dis- incongruity between the arrangement of senate trict in which he was elected, and with especial and assembly districts. But even if there was, reference to which, he is very rarely, if ever, I think it would be of small account if we could called on to act. As regards the country, I am thereby secure better men. Sir, we should aim not sufficiently acquainted with its peculiar wants to get the very best men, both in the Senate and and necessities to pass an intelligent judgment Assembly, and adopt whatever means will best on the matter. But when I reflect that the State accomplish that purpose. The fourth and last obis divided into sixty counties, each of which is jection that I have heard, is, that even if necessarily composed of a comparatively small we elect them by counties, we will not portion of the territory of the State, the interests get better men, as the central organization of whose inhabitants must be in a great measure will, in making nominations, defer in identical, so far at least as representation in the a great measure to the wishes of the different councils of the State is concerned, it seems to me assembly organizations, who will claim the right this objection must fall to the ground. The second of naming the candidates. Assuming, for arguobjection is, that it will take away the power ment's sake, that this will be the case, I still from the people and place it in the hands of poli-insist that we will then have a much better class ticians. If this were so I would be the last one of men. The central organization will say to to countenance it. Who, let me ask, makes the assembly nominations now? Do the people make them? Are they not in reality made by political organizations in each assembly district, through whose combined and united influence and power, either directly or indirectly, the county nominations are also made? True, sometimes independent candidates are run and supported by citizens who are tired of party rule and party nominations; but we all know how very seldom they are successful. At other times a number of influential citizens in an assembly dis. trict may succeed in procuring the nomination for a certain person from the powers that be, but, as I said before, does it not much more frequently happen that bold and bad men will procure the nominations for their favorites? No, no, Mr. Chairman, when the time shall come that the best, the most honest and most intelligent portion of the community in each assembly district shall be willing to devote the necessary time and attention to this matter, and combine to elect the best men, I shall be in favor of the small district system; but that time is not yet. The third objection is, that inasmuch as the Convention has decided in Committee of the Whole to adhere to the small district system so far as the Senate is concerned, it will not do to enlarge the The CHAIRMAN - The Chair is of the opinion present assembly districts, because if we do, that the amendment of the gentleman from Albathe members of the lower house will represent any [Mr. A. J. Parker] is in order, as it seeks to greater number of constituents and a larger area perfect the section rather than to strike out. The of territory than those in the upper house. This, amendment of the gentleman proposes to strke it is true, will be the case in the city and county of New York-which is divided into several senate districts - but nowhere else. In most cases it requires either two or three counties to make a senate district, and there, of course, the

the local organization, "We will nominate any one you name, provided he is a good man, one of whom we need not be ashamed, and whom the people will support." Both parties will be compelled to do this, in order to present as strong a ticket as possible to the people for their suffrages, and if either should fail to do so, the chances are that the good men who belong to that party, those who desire the public good, more than they do party success, would give their votes, and their influence, to the opposition, and thus elect that ticket. It seems to me, therefore, Mr. Chairman, that there is absolutely nothing, in either of these objections against the county system, which is not greatly overbalanced by the many positive good results which will flow from it, and I sincerely hope that the Convention will see fit to adopt it.

Mr. A. J. PARKER-I wish to offer another amendment, which I think is now in order. I wish in the first line to change "one hundred and thirty-nine," to "one hundred and twenty-eight," so as to retain the present number of members. Mr. MERWIN-That is my amendment. Mr. A. J. PARKER-I know it is, but I wish to reject the rest, all except the change of number to one hundred and twenty eight.

out the uumber of which the Assembly shall be composed, as recommended in the report of the committee, and insert the present number, one hundred and twenty-eight.

Mr. SEYMOUR-I understand that the amend

ment proposed by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], is an amendment to the orig. inal section, as reported by the committee, and that the only alteration that he proposes, really, is to strike out the number of members of Assembly as reported, and make it one hundred and twenty-eight, the number that has for many years constituted the House of Assembly. I am in favor of that amendment, and in favor of the report of the committee as respects

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair has been in error in allowing the debate to progress thus far. According to the resolution adopted this morning, the whole debate would seem to be limited to five minutes. The resolution reads thus:

"Resolved, That further debate in Committee of the Whole, on the report of the Standing Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., be limited to five minutes, and that at one o'clock to-day the article be reported to the Convention, and immediately considered, and continued the special order until disposed of."

Mr. MERRITT-I hope the Chairman will construe that to mean five minutes to each speaker. The CHAIRMAN - If there be no objection the Chair will so construe it.

Mr. ALVORD - I object

Mr. SEYMOUR-I believe I have the floor. The CHAIRMAN - Not until it is determined whether the debate can be continued further than five minutes, under this rule.

Mr. SEYMOUR-I move then that the committee now rise and report proceedings to the Convention. It is evident that the intention was to limit each speaker to five minutes and my object in moving to rise is to move to amend the resolution so that it will conform to the intention. The CHAIRMAN-The motion is not debatable.

The question was then put on the motion of Mr. Seymour, and declared carried.

Mr. ALVORD-I will withdraw my objection. Mr. WEED-The gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. has withdrawn his objection. The CHAIRMAN-It is too late. Whereupon the committee rose and the President resumed the Chair in Convention.

Mr. ARCHER from the Committee of the Whole reported that the committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith, had instructed their Chairman to report that fact to the Convention and ask leave to sit again.

The question was put on granting leave, and it was declared carried.

Mr. WILLIAMS-I beg leave to offer an amendment to the resolution offered by me this morning. It was my intention to give five minutes to each speaker.

The PRESIDENT-That can only be done by unanimous consent.

half an hour, and that the balance of the section be considered before one o'clock.

The PRESIDENT-Will the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] submit his proposition in writing?

Mr. CONGER-I give notice that if that proposition is submitted to the Convention at this time I shall object to its being entertained.

The PRESIDENT-The Chair holds that under the circumstances it is in the province of the Convention to instruct the committee, and the resolution will be in order.

Mr. CONGER-I understand it can only be entertained by unanimous consent and I object. The PRESIDENT- The Chair rules, that the proposition to amend the resolution, can only be entertained by unanimous consent. Mr. CONGER-I only want to give notice to the gentleman from Onondaga Mr. SHERMAN-I take the point of order, that debate is not in order

The PRESIDENT—The point of order is well taken.

Mr. BICKFORD-1 move to reconsider the resolution by which the resolution offered by the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Williams], was adopted.

-I object.

Mr. CONGER The PRESIDENT-Objection being made the resolution must lie upon the table.

Mr. WEED-I call for the question upon the amendment of the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Williams].

The PRESIDENT—It lies on the tabit.

Mr. A. J. PARKER-Is it in order to move to send this again to the committee, under instructions such as are contained in that resolution substituting five minutes time to each speaker?

The PRESIDENT- The Chair will hold under the peculiar circumstances of this case, although it is not exactly parliamentary, the Convention may instruct the committee as to the order of proceedings.

Mr. A. J. PARKER-I move such instructions giving five minutes to each speaker

Mr. CONGER-I wish to say that I base my objection solely upon a further attempt to limitMr. SHERMAN-I rise to a point of order. This question is not debatable, it relating to priority of business.

Mr. CONGER I do not desire to debate the question, but only to give notice.

The PRESIDENT-The gentleman from Rockland [Mr. Conger] is out of order.

Mr. CONGER-I consent to withdraw my objection.

The PRESIDENT-The Chair must observe the parliamentary rule. If there be no new proposition for the action of the Convention, the Convention will again resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on the Report of the Committee on the Legisiature, its Organization, etc.

Mr. MERRITT - I move that debate in Committee of the Whole be confined to six minutes for each speaker.

Mr. WEED- Will an amendment be in order? The PRESIDENT- It will.

Mr. ALVORD-I shall have to object unless the gentleman consents to limit the time on each section, and to limit it on the whole article to one o'clock. I therefore propose that he accept a limitation of the time upon the pending section to twenty minutes, the time on the next section to 'five minutes.

Mr. WEED-I move to amend by making it

The PRESIDENT - That amendment is not in, members of Assembly from counties, it is greatly order.

Mr. WEED-Then I withdraw it.

Mr. ALVORD-I move it be six minutos, and that the debate be closed at one o'clock.

Mr. MERRITT-I accept that amendment. Mr. S. TOWNSEND-I ask for a division on the question.

The question was then put upon the first part of the proposition of Mr. Merritt, limiting debate to six minutes, and was declared carried.

desirable that we should attain it; the fact that we elect Senators from small districts in two particular parts of this State seems to me should not weigh against the general proposition as applicable to the whole State. But you have another consideration in reference to the Senate, as the amendment now before this body now stands on this subject; I understand that a longer period of service is to be given; they are to be elected for four years; so you will have for your Senators, although elected from smaller districts, the benefit of longer experience. I think, sir, that it is an important thing to attain this organization and to sustain it, of the election of our members of Assembly by counties, and The Convention again resolved itself into Com- it will do much, I think, to raise the character of mittee of the Whole on the report of the Com-the body to which these members are to be remittee on the Legislature, its Organization, etc., turned; it gives us a better opportunity of seleoMr. ARCHER, of Wayne, in the chair. tion; it concentrates the power of the county as a county, and the weight and influence of each county in the State then can be felt as it should be for the benefit of that county, and not be frittered away as it now is under the small district system.

The question was then put upon the second clause of the motion, that the committee rise at half-past one o'clock and report to the Convention, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 63 to 22.

The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be on the amendment offered by Mr. A. J. Parker to the fourth section.

Mr. SEYMOUR-The amendment offered by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], is simply to limit the number of members Mr. WEED- I think that the number of the in the Assembly to the present number, one more numerous House of the Legislature of hundred and twenty-eight, and it is an amend-the State of New York is substantially large ment, as I understand it, to the original proposi- enough at the present day. If there were tion of the committee, to wit, that the members no other considerations except a desire to of the Assembly shall be elected by counties, and change, I should be opposed to increasing that not by districts, as was the practice up to the number, but from the peculiar size of quite a Constitution of 1846. I am in favor of this proposi-number of counties in this State, when you divide tion; I am in favor of the election of members the number of inhabitants in the State by the one of the Assembly by counties, and not by hundred and twenty-eight, the present number districts, and I am in favor of limiting the in the Assembly, several counties with a very number of members of Assembly to one hundred large fraction over the requisite population for one, and twenty-eight. There are many considera- are entitled to but one member, though they are tions in favor of electing members of Assem- very nearly entitled to two. I believe that a just bly by counties. It gives opportunity for a representation of those counties in the Assembly better selection; you have the population will induce every member who will sit down and of the entire county to select from; whereas calculates those fractions, to vote to increase tho by the small district system you must con- number, as reported by this committee. I am fine your selection to the district from forced to come to that conclusion from the examwhich the member is to be elected. When ination I have given this subject, and for that we reflect that our countics are organizations reason, Mr. Chairman, I shall oppose the amendof long continuance, that the public business is ment offered by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. regulated in reference to counties to a very great A. J. Parker]. In my own county we, for a extent, that it is customary for the people of coun- large number of years, have had more inhabitants ties to meet as a people, as residents of the coun- than entitle that county to two members, but ty, and to act together in relation to their public because of living upon the borders, quite a numaffairs and matters of importance to them, we ber of those inhabitants are aliens, and we are must, I think, see that the representation of reduced just below the requisite number for two, this population having one concentrated interest only a few hundreds less, I think, at the apportiontogether, is better than a representation divided ment before the last, and hence we were reduced and scattered over a county, among little localities. to but one. Under this apportionment, making it My time will not allow me to pursue all these con- just and equal to the balance of the State, my siderations, but I commend them to the reflection county will have two members of Assembly, of every member of this Convention before he votes. as it is entitled to by its numbers. I underThe only objection I have heard in reference to this stand it was the desire of the committee, in proposition of electing our members by counties making the number one hundred and thirty-nine, is this, that we have already fixed upon sen- to accommodate, as far as possible, those counties, ate districts which, in some instances, will divide counties, and therefore if you elect members, for instance in the city of Brooklyn and in the city of New York, by counties, you will elect them from larger districts than you do your Senators. I do not conceive that is any objection. If there is a positive good, as I believe there is, in electing our

having a large fraction over the number of the present apportionment, to give to those who had more than one-half enough for another member an additional member by reducing the quota, by dividing the whole number by one hundred and thirty-nine, instead of one hundred and twentyeight. For that reason, and believing that increa.

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