sing the number from one hundred and twenty-nearer at the sense of the people than by any eight to one hundred and thirty-nine will not destroy the efficiency of the Assembly, I am in favor of the increase, and, as I said, against the amendment of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker].

Mr. BERGEN-I think, Mr. Chairman, that the gentleman from Rensselaer [Mr. Seymour] was in error when he stated that in small districts the people would be necessarily confined to taking candidates from their districts. I know of no law, and doubt if the gentleman can point to any, that prevents the election or nomination of individuals residing outside of their district as members of Assembly. They would have the same privilege they now have of selecting from any part of the county or any part of the State any elector of the State. There is nothing gained by that at all. I am not in favor of the large district system. If the gentleman's argument has any weight, why not elect our members of Congress from the whole State? If his arguments have any force, why not take our members of the Senate from the whole State, so as to have the wide field the gentleman desires to select from? We have the right to do it now.

Mr. SEYMOUR-Will the gentleman from Kings [Mr. Bergen] permit me to ask him a question? I wish to ask him if the right of selection is, as he says, so extensive, whether he has ever known it to be exercised?

other plan we can frame. This committee has already decided that small districts are most advisible in the election of Senators. The same arguments which apply in that case apply with equai and with stronger force to members of Assembly. I hope, therefore, that the single district system for members of Assembly, which is now in force, will be continued. As to the number of members to be selected for the Assembly, there may be a difference of opinion; and upon that point I have not exactly arrived at a conclusion whether it should be increased or not, but I hope by all means, the small district system will be continued as being most democratic and most likely to represent the views of the people of this State.

Mr. LEE-The committee having decided to adopt the single senate district system, to carry out the idea will, I have no doubt, after due deliberation, decide to adopt the single assembly district system, and thus preserve the system in all its symmetry. While I should not object to a moderate increase of the members of the Assembly, I think it better to favor the amendment of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], so far as it relates to the number, one hundred and twentyeight. So far as it relates to the district, I should favor the amendment of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Merwin]. It will be conceded, I think, by every member of the committee, that in the Assembly, the most popular branch of the legislative body, it is proper to come down to the body of the people and select from the several localities in the State men who will truly and correctly, and from their intimate relations with their constituents, more ably represent them than it can be done by the selection of men on a general

Mr. BERGEN-I have. There have been cases where it has been exercised. There are members here now elected to this Constitutional Convention who do not reside in the district from which they were elected; there are two from the county of Kings at this time. The right has been exercised on various occa- ticket. It is claimed that to nominate and elect sions. I hold that the small district system is the democratic system. A pure democracy is where the people assemble together, and each man votes on every question; and the nearer we can approach to this, the nearer we approach pure democracy, which I hold to be the best democracy. In a large population you cannot have all directly participate in the government, but the nearer you get to that point the better. We have a representative, under our present system, from each locality-from each district; we bring him in contact with the party he represents; he knows their views and represents the views of that district.

Mr. SCHUMAKER-Did I understand the gentleman to say that there were two delegates elected from Kings county who do not reside there?

by counties wo secure abler men in the Legislature than by single districts. Now, to assume this is to assume that the whole is greater than all its parts; for certainly by the single district system we embrace the whole in the aggregate. I suppose in that respect no argument worth any thing can be drawn in favor of the one or the other on the score of getting abler men. If the people in a special locality choose to elect incompetent men, their interests must suffer, and theirs alone; so there will be nono to complain if that result should happen. They can remedy that difficulty. Perhaps, were I a citizen of Troy, or of Albany, or of Hudson, or of Schenectady, business centers of the counties in which they are, where there is an identity of interest, a community of feeling, I might, like gentlemen representing some of those localities, at least be in favor of electing members of Assembly by county ticket. But, sir, I represent in part a county differently circumstanced. The county of Oswego has sent, and will continue to send if the number of 128 remains, three members to the Assembly. Each of these several assembly districts, while they have cerMr. SCHUMAKER-This is news to me. tain interests in common, yet have a local interest Mr. BERGEN-I understaud so. But I say to protect and foster; for example, one district the nearer we can bring these men to the people embracing the city of Oswego, while it has interthey represent the better. The small districts bring ests in common with the other districts, has a them in contact with the people they immediately commercial interest by lake and by canal, which represent, and by that means minorities have is the leading interest; another district lying on representation here, and by that means we arrive the borders of Oneida Lake and the Oneida Lake

Mr. BERGEN-I say there are two members here now representing districts in Kings county who do not reside in those districts.

Mr. SCHUMAKER-Who are they? Mr. BERGEN-Mr. Barnard and Mr. Lowrey; they reside in the district where I reside.

Improvement, while it shares in common the Assembly, and it has always had it repcertain interests with the city of Oswego, has resented in the Assembly, and that is what has interests peculiar to its own locality, and the peo-been called the manor interest-the interest in conple in that district would desire to send to the nection with the title under which they held Assembly a man who was perfectly familiar with their land. We have none of that interest in the and knew the wishes of his constituents and Troy district, and they have very little of it in would honestly represent them. So, too, we have the upper district. The city of Troy, which has another district which has certain interests in been a separate assembly district, has had intercommon with the other two, but still its leading ests of its own every year, in which the rest of the interest is in railroad transportation-lying on county has had no interest whatever, and the true either side of the Rome and Watertown railroad. way of representing the county of Rensselaer has Its business interests are transacted over that been to allow the lower district to elect its own road and through that channel, consequently men according to its own notions to reprewhen the interests of that people in regard to sent it in the peculiar interests that affect the transportation are to be considered, they desire to whole people of that district. The city of be heard, and they desire to be heard through one Troy, has sent its men representing the whole who understands their interests, and who keeps interests of the city of Troy; and so it will be on guard to see those interests may not be inva- throughout the State. I think if you look ded. So that from these several considerations, at the counties in this State that have more and many others that might be furnished, I think than one representative you will find there are it is clearseveral local interests they represent; but whether that be so or not, I believe the true principle of representative government is to-day what it was at the establishment of the government, that we should come as near to sending the man himself to sit in the Assembly at it is possible to come, that we should come as near to actual personal representation as it is practicable to bring, the organization of government.

Here the gavel fell, the gentleman's time having expired.

Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I am opposed to the proposition of the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker], and my opposition to it arises from the fact that I am in favor of the representation of the people. I utterly repudiate this old federal doctrine, which I had hoped had died out of this country, that devices must be formed to pre- Mr. DUGANNE-I am opposed to the county vent the representation of the people. The doc- or largo and compound representation in the trine of a republican government is that, each man Assembly, because I believe it reverses the prinwho is an elector is to participate in the admin- ciple of immediate representation which ought to istration of the government, and if he cannot go be at the base of the popular House. I can see, himself, and participate in legislation, he sends sir, that instead of representing, as it should, the a representative and it has been the policy since single community and the small circle, it may repthis government was established to come as near resent a consolidation of interests which are ento the sending of the man himself to the tirely opposite to the interests of the people. I assembly as it was possible to come, and I can see that in some instauces a county reprebelieve myself that this policy has worked sentative may be nominated and controlled by a well. I do not believe in the doctrine that since county clique of politicians; I can suppose that the adoption of the Constitution of 1846 inferior in districts lying upon the Central railroad, that men have been sent to the Assembly of the great interest might control one county after State. I do not believe there is a district in this another, and send its agents or friends in a conState entitled to a representative in the solidated force to the popular branch of the LegisAssembly that has not an abundance of lature; I believe that even the principle of municimen fully capable of coming here and sitting as pal representation, as such, might obtain, in this representatives of the district. I, sir, utterly respect, when, as in the county of New York, the repudiate this doctrine of great men; I know city of New York could send the entire delegavery little about great men; men are only rela- tion, and control that delegation for municipal tively great, and men that are great in one sub-interests against the interests of the people, and ject may be very small in another. I believe thus misrepresent a large minority, at least, of that the common-sense men upon this floor are as the voters in that city. For these reasons I am great as the greatest in matters of judgment; and opposed to the county representation, and, morethe more I see of legislation, and the more I see over, I deny the fact that we can get better men of action in public assemblies, the more am I by such mode of representation. I look around confirmed in the impression with which I came me, in this chamber, and can recognize some of here, that the average common sense of men is the gentlemen who have argued that better men the best guide even in matters of legislation. I may be obtained by a county representation, and entirely differ from my colleague [Mr. Seymour] yet those gentlemen themselves have heretofore in regard to the doctrine he has laid down illustrated, by their presence in the Legislature, a hat counties generally have but one system of election from single districts. I can interest. Sir, the assembly districts of the see the honorable gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. county in which I live have by no Alvord], the gentleman from New York (Mr. meaus a unity of interest. Since 1846 it has always been the case that the south assembly district the district lying immediately across the river-has had an interest of its own, an interest which it has desired to have represented in

Opdyke], the gentleman from Oneida [Mr. Sherman], the gentleman who now occupies the chair [Mr. Archer], the chairman of the committee which presented this report [Mr. Merritt], and many other men whom no one will contend are

not peers of any politician in the State in respect, in the legislative organization, or by someto statesmanlike ability; and I contend that the thing else which has not been suggested. people know their representatives, know their We have had the reports of two committees, both neighbors, know their friends, and can select from committees, in point of numbers and character, in their immediate circles better men than could ever be selected for them through cliques or combinations of politicians operating in county conventions.

Mr. SPENCER-I am in favor of some increase in the number of representatives, and for this reason. The number one hundred and twenty-eight was adopted over forty-five years ago, nearly half a century, when the population of the State was less than one-third what it is now, and when a single representative represented only eight or ten thousand of the population, while with the present population of the State, and the proposed number of one hundred and twenty-eight each, he will represent about twenty-five thousand. It seems to me, sir, that we should accommodate the number in some degree at least to the increased population of the State. I am in favor also, of an election by counties, and for this reason, that the county and the town and the city are the only political divisions and the only political communities which are Known in the State, and there is no other reasonable mode of apportioning the representatives of the people except by the political communities or the political divisions into which the State is divided.

every way commanding the confidence of this Convention and of the people of the State, and we attach no importance whatever to their labors. They spent nearly two months in the consideration and formation of this report, and we are spending four or five days in tearing it to pieces. I say, Mr. Chairman, this may be all right, I may be entirely wrong, no remedy may be required, there may be no corruption in the Legislature, we may have nothing to accomplish, and if that is the case I ask what occasion there was for a Constitutional Convention?

Mr. M. H. LAWRENCE-The gentleman [Mr. Daly] says that the people of the State demand a change in respect to the character of our Legislature and its organization. I merely wish to state that I represent here an assembly district-one of the rural districts of this State, and I do claim to be somewhat conversant with the popular feeling of my district; and, sir, I never heard one sentiment uttered by way of dissatisfaction with the Constitution of 1846, in respect to the organization of the Legislature. And certainly one of the wisest things the Convention of 1846 did was in the organization of single senate districts and the organization of the assembly districts in the manner Mr. DALY-I supposed when I came to this in which they did organize them. We have gen. Convention that the people expected certain tlemen here on this floor arguing in favor of large changes from the Constitution of 1846. I supposed districts for county representation. Sir, I am only that there was such a thing as legislative corruption convinced of this one truth-that the gentlemen but from the character of the arguments here I distrust the people of this State and their ability am led to believe that I must have been mistaken, to govern themselves. What I shall do in this and that the Legislature during the last ten or Convention will be to try to vote here as my twelve years compares in every respect with any constituents would vote if they were able to deposit previous Legislature in the State. I believe the their ballots. I claim that that is the true reprepeople think differently, whatever gentlemen may sentative government. Gentlemen talk about a think or say here-that they expect changes; but certain class of philosophers having expounded the only result so far has been that, with one what was the government in its foundation, and exception, we have been re-enacting the Con- they told us that its foundation was in the will of stitution of 1846. We have decided to have the God. Perhaps that view is correct. The gentlesame number of Senators, and it is now pro- man from Oneida [Mr. T. W. Dwight] told us that posed that we should have the same we should form the best Constitution we number of Assemblymen. I may be mistaken, could, and advise the people what to do. Mr. Chairman, but I anticipate that the people Sir, we are the servants of the people, expect something more. The gentleman from having come here to do their bidding and to obey Kings [Mr. Bergen] says it is desirable to bring their wishes, if we know what their wishes are. things down to a pure democracy. He knows I believe the voice of the people is the voice of something about the kind of pure democracy that prevails. I knew something of it in former days, and something of it now. It is the assembling together of a certain number of men, who arrange what the people shall do, and when the people go to the polls they take in hand a bundle of tickets merely to record the will of these gentlemen. It is a mere matter of nomination, and the only difference in regard to it is whether you have a county nomination or a district nomination. It is simply a question of whether you will be controlled by larger politicians or smaller, for the process is the same in each instance. In my judgment the people know this, the people expect some change from this Convention, and, so far as I can see, there is no indication of a desire to make any change. If any thing is to be expected it is by a change

God. That is my idea of a republican government. I believe that we should try to find out what the wishes of our constituents are, and then try to conform to them, I hope, sir, that the present organization of the Legislature, as adopted by the Convention of 1846, will be adhered to.

Mr. RATHBUN-I have been interested in the course of this debate, and more especially with the argument of certain gentlemen, and I regret that there was not more of them who are so entirely devoted to the interests of the people, and who are under so great apprehension that the people are to be ruined. Gentlemen have made it a point to express with great vehemence their especial regret and their extreme apprehension that the people are going to be ruined in some way by enlarging the field of representation. They have urged this point, that the people ought not to

be allowed to come together to elect a representa-, most of the great principles of civil rights and tive from the county because it removes the repre- liberty to which we now adhere, which were sentative so far from the people, and is a distrust brought over to this country by our fathers. of the people. My friend from Yates [Mr. M. H. Such divisions remain to-day in almost all the old Lawrence], who has just taken his seat, who settled parts of the State the same as they represents a county that has but a single district, existed in our colonial state, which have has given his warning to the members of the ever since been recognized politically and Convention who represent large counties that civilly in every possible way. The gentlemen they are about to abandon the people. Now, of this Convention desire to regulate cities and what is the difference whether the people of the other municipal corporations by general laws county, as a county, vote for the representative of which, of course, will necessarily take away the the county to be elected annually, or whether necessity of representing minute local interests they divide up the vote for the representative to by dividing the State into small districts. be elected annually. The nearness of the thing to Mr. SCHUMAKER- Which country does the the people, as I understand it, is the frequency of gentleman refer to ? election. That is what brings it home to the Mr. ROBERTSON-I will answer that outpeople, not the large district nor the small dis- side after my six minutes are over. This division trict. That has nothing to do with the case at into counties, with county officers and governall. But how often do the people elect? That is ment, as continued down to the present time, has the nearness to the people. Now, sir, the propo- been found convenient, and has been respected sition is to elect members of the Legislature annu- by every Constitution of the State, and the repreally. Does the gentleman have any apprehension sentation of counties in this State has always that the people of the county cannot secure men been kept up to the present time. So sacred to represent the county by county lines as well have counties been held, that I find, even in reand as effectually, and men as well known gard to the divisions of the State for the purpose of and as competent as when they are electing Senators by districts which are required elected by a part of the county. We to be artificially made by the Legislature, and were told yesterday it would not do to have which, although provided for in the Constitution large senate districts, because the people could of the State, may be changed, that county lines are not know anybody outside of county lines. required to be so respected, that, even in this Nobody then dared to insinuate that the people artificial division, the people of the State have could not know anybody inside of county lines. always maintained, with religious respect, the inIf we are to take the argument to-day, it is that tegrity of the body commonly known as counties the people are not sufficiently intelligent to be having separate political organizations for able to choose anybody outside of the assembly local purposes, so as to have them repredistrict of the county. We have got one absurdi- sented in the Legislature of the State,`alty, that seems to be fixed to go into the Constitu- though not represented in the Senate. We are tion as adopted by the Convention, and that is, to be divided, the whole people of the State the election of Senators by single districts, in are to be numerically divided, into separate order to keep them near the people; they are to districts, for the purpose of electing Senabe elected from single districts, and then give tors, and constituting a popular representation. them a run of four years. Is that what the gen- I therefore submit, we ought to maintain tleman calls keeping the thing near the people? You elect a man and he runs for a period of four years, good or bad, and we have nobody to be elected in the mean time to admonish him or to advise with him; but the idea that the man is near the people because he is elected from the small district and for a long time is perfectly

absurd.

this political division into counties, with their train of sheriffs, district attorneys, and other officers, and a separate organization, to be represented as a body, by a body of men elected from the county at large, and the county should not be cut up into separate artificial districts for the purpose of having members elected to represent them. I have heard much on this subject in reMr. ROBERTSON-As my time is short, I gard to the advantages of small and large districts, will not attempt to contrast the reasons which in regard to preventing political corruption. It is arge me to support the election of representatives a most extraordinary thing, and I would be glad in the Assembly from a county by general ticket, if gentlemen would in some way solve the with those which induced me to vote against enigma, how it happens that notwithstandlarge districts and numerous Senators in selecting ing these constant declamations against polirepresentatives for the Senate. I shall merely tical corruption in legislation, and personal content myself with giving a few reasons or perhaps reduce them all to one, why, I am anxious the whole county should be represented by a body of men chosen in one body rather than by gentlemen selected from different districts into which the county is to be subdivided. The division of this State into counties is a time honored division, both in the name, and in the parts into which the State has continued from its creation to be divided. It existed before the revolution, and such division and name came across the ocean from that country from which we derived

corruption in legislators, which has ever formed the staple commodity of all the journals in the land. who have nothing else to say-how it has happened that the same people whom we are now so anxious to protect, should have sent again and again, by their votes, persons said to be known as political and corrupt legisla tors to the Legislature of the State; and yet the same people have sent here gentlemen so wise, so prudent, and having so much foresight, that they can provide a bulwark, and a breakwater against the corruption of these very representatives of

the same people, who are to legislate in another fore look to that body as being more pure, less capacity, and meet in this same chamber here- likely to be corrupted, more honest in their legisafter. I would like to have this riddle solved, lative character and dealings, larger minded and and when it is solved I may be prepared then to more intelligent, than those aldermen whe subscribe to all these succedanea which are are elected from small districts; and yet proposed here for the purpose of preventing I am proud to say that those aldermen, political corruption and preventing the people from sending to the Legislature men who will forfeit their trust.

Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I ought to apologize to the Convention for rising to make another speech, but what I wish to say is this: this charge of corruption, if such a thing exists, is not to be corrected by a change of districts. When the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature report, I will have a proposition to cure the difficulty, but not in the organization of the districts. I sympathize with the gentlemen from the city of New York who object to having the county of New York elect the whole delegation, and if they will put me in possession of the answer I can make to my constituents to the question I propound now, I will go with them. You have said that 25,000 of the people in my county are entitled to a representative on this floor, and we are entitled to two. Now, if you enable me to answer them when I go home, how it is that you compel them to take counsel from the people who live in other parts of the county as to the man they shall send-if you furnish me with a conclusive answer on that point, so that I will be able to say it was not for the reason. you are not competent yourselves, but must consult with the people in the other part of the county with regard to the selection of these men, I may go with you. If you do not give me that answer I must go against your proposition.

coming from those little districts as they do, have never been any more corrupt; that they have been as honest in their legislative character and dealings; that they have in all things been as careful of the public weal; that they have been as watchful over the interests of the city they represent; that they have in all things conformed themselves to the true principles which should actuate and govern legislators of the great city of New York, just as much as those who have come from the large districts in the board of councilmen. Is not this saying enough? Those aldermen, from those small districts, have always been as much on the alert to expose and scathingly rebuke bribery and corruption; they have been as careful to scorn a bribe [laughter]; they have been in all things as careful as those delegates who are so carefully selected from those very large districts. I see no difference, and you will see no difference in the character of this house, whether your members come here by and through chicanery and mixing up of party cliques in a county convention, or whether they come here direct from the people, by the smaller districts. It is not the manner in which they are sent. It is the men themselves, and when those men can be taught their duty, either in the Legislature by their peers, or by the courts, or at home by their constituents, we shall have an honest Legislature, and not until them.

Mr. BICKFORD-I rise for the purpose of calling for a division of the motion proposed by the gentleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker]. He proposes to strike out, and then insert. I will call for the question to be first taken on the motion to strike out.

Mr. STRATTON-I do not rise to give an answer to the gentleman from Cattaraugus [Mr. Van Campen]. If I had consulted my own feelings, laboring as I am under a very severe cold, I should say nothing. But I feel it a duty to say a few words, more especially in answer to what The CHAIRMAN-The gentleman is informed has just been said by two of my colleagues [Mr. that the motion to strike out is one and indivisible Daly and Mr. Robertson]. The whole argument Mr. PRINDLE-I desire to say a single word addressed to us here why we should elect delega- in regard to the increase of representatives tions to the House of Assembly by counties instead to one hundred and thirty-nine, as proposed of single districts, seems to simmer itself down to by the committee. I am in favor of that, and this: that we will get men, by that system, of a I am in favor of it for the reason stated by larger-minded class-men who would be less likely the gentleman from Cortland [Mr. Ballard], beto be corrupted when they come here, because, cause I believe that number is better calculated coming from large districts, they would necessa- to a fair apportionment of the districts, and allows rily be correspondingly greater in every respect large factions in this State which are now unrepthan members chosen from smaller districts. I resented to be represented. The gentleman from believe that both are wrong; and if I had time, I Cortland [Mr. Ballard] stated the effect of this think I could show by an argument why they are would be to give another member to the county in both wrong. But I will not argue the question which he resides. I would state, Mr. Chairman, further than by a home, and perhaps it may be that the same result would be had in the called before I get through a homely, illustration. county of Chenango. Before the last apporWe have in the city of New York a legislature, tionment the county of Chenango had for composed of two branches, after the similitude of a great many years two members of Assemour State Legislature. We have a board of alder bly, but by the last census the population men, elected by small districts, holding their office fell a trifle short of the requisite number for two for two years; we have a board of councilmen, members. Now sir, we have always given and elected from larger districts; and the council- we give now, in the county of Chenango, more manic district in which I reside is larger by far votes at every election than the adjoining county than the counties of Rensselaer and Washington which has two representatives. I suppose they together. Those in the board of councilmen are have in that county more women and children and elected from these large districts; we must there- less voters. The number one hundred and thirty