nine would give Chenango an additional repre- for any citizen, whether residing in the same sentative, and I think it is a better number than county with such electors or not, and any citizen one hundred and twenty-eight. But sir, I believe receiving 5,500 votes shall be entitled to a seat in that an increase in the number of representatives the House of Assembly."

It is no new law that a person in a county

is due to the increase of the population of this State. The increase in the number ought to be may vote for any person outside of the large. If one hundred and twenty-eight in 1846 county; but no method has yet been devised and previous to it, was not too large a number to by which a person exercising that right represent the population of this State, then I think shall have his vote counted, except under one hundred and thirty-nine at this time is not too the old majority or minority plan. Now, sir, large a number to represent the present popula- I propose to try, by this amendment, to give the tion. minorities a right throughout the State to be represented on the basis of 5,500 votes, which is almost equal to the apportionment now determined by this committee for about one hundred and thirty-nine members; so that if a minority in any one district of the State or any one county-I do not propose to set aside the rule at all-are dissatisfied with the nomination made, they will have a right to make a new nomination of their own, and to vote for a candidate of their own choice, and thus have the power to give him a seat if they succeed in giving him 5,500 votes. I suppose that is the only practical way in which representation of minorities can at this time be tried in this State. That is all I have to say.

Mr. BICKFORD-I would respectfully ask the Chair to mention the rule to which he refers, that the motion to strike out and insert is one and indivisible. Rule 38 says, when a blank is to be filled and different sums or time shall be proposed, the question shall be first taken on the highest sum and the longest time.

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair answers the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Bickford], that he does not recollect the specific rule, except it is an old parliamentary usage, from the knowledge of which the Chair decided the question on the impulse of the moment, and he is now informed that it is in the rules adopted by this body.

Mr. AXTELL-I call for the reading of the resolution.

The question was then put on Mr. Conger's amendment, and it was declared lost.

Mr. BICKFORD-I propose to amend section four by striking out "one hundred and thirtynine" in the first and second line, and insert "one

The question was put on Mr. Bickford's amendment, and it was declared lost.

Mr. DALY-I propose to amend the section by inserting this amendment at the end of it:

"The provision herein, however, shall not prevent the Legislature from providing hereafter for a more effectual representation of minorities."

The SECRETARY again read the resolution. Mr. MERRITT-I wish to say that the conclusion which the committee arrived at, is based upon the fact that this increase was occasioned by rep-hundred and forty-five." resenting majority fractions. A portion of the committee, of which I was one, were in favor of largely increasing the Assembly, and the number fixed upon was in the nature of a compromise. We based it upon the same principle, and that was that the majority fraction should be fairly and properly represented. We also included a class who heretofore have been excluded-col- I offer this amendment, Mr. Chairman, ored persons not taxed-and in making the distri- because it has been suggested by the gentlebution on that basis it gave the apportionment as men composing the society whose memorial and I stated it the other day, and it made an increase report I presented yesterday. I will not underof eleven members. I shall vote, therefore, take now to submit any argument upon the subject. against this proposition, believing an increase I agree with my colleague from New York [Mr. ought to be made, and I would be willing to Opdyke] that the time is not proper for the introextend that increase to one hundred and seventy- duction of this subject into the fundamental law. five or two hundred. I would be very willing to To the extent I have examined the subject, howsupport the proposition the gentleman from Jeffer-ever, I am not prepared to go as far as he does in son [Mr. Merwin] has made in his minority report, the conclusion that the whole matter is fallacious but I understand he does not propose to renew that proposition. There is no feeling on that subject, and in case the proposition is now adopted, of course we adhere to the one hundred and twenty-eight.

and impracticable. The impression made upon my mind so far as I have had an opportunity to examine the subject, is, that there is something in it, and I offer this amendment with a view of leaving it to the power of the Legislature hereafter to Mr. BARKER—I desire simply to give infor- adopt any provisions in respect to it which exmation in regard to how the eleven addititioal perience may justify. I admit, for the present, it members, if voted for, will be distributed among the State. Allegany will have one; Chenango one; Clinton one; New York two Orange one; Kings one; Westchester one; Steuben one; Mon

is entirely experimental, as it has not been subjected to the test of practical experience; but the fact that it has been very earnestly considered by very able minds, not only by Mr. Hare, its projector, in England, but by the most eminent The question was then put on the motion of Mr. | political economist of this age, Mr. Mill, and has A. J. Parker, and it was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 40 to 67.

roe one.

Mr. CONGER-I offer the following amend

ment:

"But nothing herein contained shall prevent any elector in any county from giving his vote

been largely discussed in other countries where personal representation exists, leads me to think it would not be right in us to cut off the Legisla ture for twenty years from even considering this subject, if the views of those gentlemen who have advocated it, should prove to be correct. I agree

Mr. KINNEY-I offer the following amendment:

with the gentleman from New York [Mr. Opdyke], [ that the fundamental principle of this goverment is, that it must be ruled by majorities, because Strike out of fourth section, commencing in there is no other alternative; but there is also a the sixth line, the following words: except that principle, in connection with this which, is that the counties of Fulton and Hamilton, shall, tominorities must be heard. I have very great gether, elect, until the population of the county respect for the opinion of the intelligent gentlemen of Hamilton shall, according to the ratio, entitle who compose the society referred to, and at whose it to a member." suggestion this amendment is offered; their The object I have in offering this amendment is motive being the suppression of the causes which to carry out the principle which the committee now lead to political corruption in the Legislature have recognized, and which this Convention has and in the exercise of the elective franchise, and it is only in that view I submit this amendment; leaving the Convention to make such disposition of it as, in their judgment, they may think proper.

also recognized by a vote just taken, namely, that every county shall have one representative. Now, sir, I see no good reason why the county of Hamilton, although a small county, should not be represented in the Legislature. That principle seems to have been recognized by the committee in their deliberations, and in the report they have made; and is also recognized by the Convention. I trust the Convention will not go back and repudiate now, the very principle laid down in the

Mr. AXTELL-I hope the amendment just offered will not prevail. I must say, with all due deference to gentlemen on this floor, that I think we have had the representation of particular minorities, ad nauseam, and I hope nothing will be placed in the Constitution recognizing the vision-section which we propose to amend. The county ary theories of political doctrinaires.

is organized, and stands now on a perfect equality with all other counties in the State. If a county is to be represented by virtue of being a county, then the county of Hamilton should be represented also. I hope the amendment will be passed by this committee for the purpose of being consistent at least with itself, and have every county represented in the Legislature.

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Kinney, and it was declared lost.

Mr. E. A. BROWN-I offer the following amendment:

Mr. PAIGE-Political writers present the proposition and insist upon its correctness, that there can be no pure democracy in representative governments, unless minorities are represented. I agree with the gentleman from New York [Mr. Opdyke] that we are not prepared in this Convention, with the knowledge we have on this subject, to prepare and incorporate in the Constitution a plan for the application of this doctrine. But, sir, I think so much of the principle of representing minorities, that I am willing to agree that this subject shall be committed to the Legislature. The In Mr. Merwin's amendment strike out the first true principle of representative government is the part and insert as follows, viz.: "The Assembly personal representation of all the electors. In dis-shall consist of one hundred and forty-two memtricts where one party greatly preponderates over bers, who shall be annually elected." the other, the minority for the time being are substantially disfranchised, but if we can introduce a principle whereby the minority may be represented, they will have a personal representation in the deliberative body, and so reet face to face the representatives of the majority, and can advocate the views of the minority. This principle is of so much importance, and it is so essential to the perfection of representative government, that I am willing to commit the subject to the Legislature for the reason that we have not now sufficient knowledge of the subject to devise a plan to be inserted in the Constitution.

Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I offer the following amendment to the proposition of the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly]:

"If approved by, or after submission to the people."

The only change from Mr. Merwin's proposed amendment is in the number, and I think, from what has been said, there are very substantial reasons why a small increase of the members of Assembly should be made. I do not propose to make any argument about it.

Mr. HAND-I do not know what reason tho gentleman from Lewis [Mr. E. A. Brown] has for this, specially, but I will mention one reason why this addition should be made; that is, to do justice to three counties that have a fraction almost large enough to give them another member. One is the county of Broome, another the county of Onondaga, and the county of Jefferson, having a very large fraction-almost twelve thousand. By adding these three you would do justice to those counties, and certainly would not make a large representation for a State containing four millions of population. I would be in favor, personally, of making this representation much larger, but I hope the Convention will be in favor of making this addition of three to the number, and make it one hundred and forty-two.

Mr. DALY-I accept the amendment. Mr. E. A. BROWN-I rise merely to suggest that, under the Constitution, provision will undoubtedly be made for amending that instrument, and when the electors have acquired the knowledge essential to the framing of an article, by which Mr. KETCHAM-I am in favor of the inminorities can be represented in the Legislature, creased number of representatives, because I besuch a provision can be secured by an amend-lieve that the increased population of the State ment to the Constitution without specially pro- requires it; but I am opposed to making it an viding for it now. even number.

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Daly, as amended by Mr. Van Campen, and it was declared lost.

Mr. HAND-I move an amendment, to make it one hundred and forty-three.

Mr. E. A. BROWN-I am willing to accept

the amendment, and call it one hundred and forty- [intention to become citizens of the United States." three.

Mr. KETCHAM-I remember one or two occa sions, when the Legislature have been here for weeks, detained by reason of an inability to organize the House, because they were equally divided. I think it is rather important, therefore, that we make the proposed odd number in the amendment. I shall vote for any increased number not exceeding two hundred, if the proposition makes the body consist of an odd number of members.

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Masten, and it was declared lost.

The SECRETARY then read the first division of the proposition of Mr. Merwin.

Mr. RUMSEY-I propose to amend that proposition by making the members of the Assembly elected biennially, and I do it for the purpose of following it up by the proposition that we shall have only biennial sessions of the Legislature. I think it will be found that a very large portion of the legislation in this State is confined to local or private legislation, and it seems to me to be entirely manifest that the Convention intends to adopt some measure by which this large amount of private and local legislation shall cease from coming before the Legislature; and if such a measure is adopted by the Convention, there is Mr. MERRITT-I move to make it one hun-no need for the annual sessions of the Legislature. dred and thirty-nine, as proposed by the Committee, instead of one hundred and twenty-eight.

The question was put on the amendment of Mr. E. A. Brown, and it was declared lost.

Mr. E. A. BROWN-I propose one hundred and forty-one.

The question was put on the amendment of Mr. E. A. Brown, and it was declared lost.

Mr. VAN CAMPEN-I rise to a point of order that we have taken a direct vote on that number within thirty minutes past.

It is very evident, Mr. Chairman, that a very large portion of the legislation which applies to the public and only to the public interest (if you throw out private legislation) can be done precisely as well by calling the Legislature in session every other year, as it can by having it in session annually.

The CHAIRMAN-The Chair understands the proposition of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Merwin] was to make it over one hundred and Mr. E. BROOKS-I hope the amendment twenty-eight. While that was pending the gen- moved by the gentleman who has just taken his tleman from Albany [Mr. A. J. Parker] moved an seat will prevail. I believe it is a wise maxim amendment to the original article as reported by recognized by most persons who study public the committee, so as to change it from one hun- measures, that the world is governed too much, dred and thirty-nine to one hundred and twenty- and that the frequency of the assembling of our eight; that was lost. But that vote did not have Legislature, instead of contributing to the public any connection with the amendment of the gen- good, tends very much to the public disadvantage. tleman from Jefferson [Mr. Merwin]. The Chair, I believe it would be a measure of great public therefore, holds the proposition of the gentleman economy if the Legislature were to assemble bat from Jefferson [Mr. Merwin] now stands at one once in every two years, instead of every year, as hundred and twenty-eight, and the gentleman at present, and I do not believe in regard to any from St. Lawrence [Mr. Merritt] moves to amend, public question which may require action, that the by changing the number in that proposed amend- people will suffer thereby. I do not wish to debate ment of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Mer-the question, but I believe no measure has been win] from one hundred and twenty-eight to one hundred and thirty-nine.

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Merritt, and it was declared carried.

The CHAIRMAN announced that the question was on the proposed substitute of Mr. Merwin, as amended by the committee.

Mr. BARKER-I rise simply to state that having changed the number to one hundred and thirty-nine, the balance of the proposition of the gentleman from Jefferson [Mr. Merwin] should be voted down, because it proposes to continue the present apportionment. If it is one hundred and thirty-nine there will have to be a new apportionment, and therefore I think the proposition ought to be voted down as being only calculated for one hundred and twenty-eight.

Mr. MERWIN-The main proposition now left of my amendment is whether or not we shall elect by counties or single districts. When that is determined the wording of the amendment can be altered to correspond with the vote taken.

Mr. E. A. BROWN-We can avoid any difficulty by dividing the question.

Mr. MASTEN-I offer the following amendment:

Insert after the word "aliens" the words "who have not declared, according to law, their

proposed during the consideration of the question now before us, of more public importance than this one, and I believe, sir, that the people, in regard to whom we hear so much, and of whom we say so much, will be entirely satisfied with the proposition, should it become part of the organic

law.

Mr. RATHBUN-I will state now, sir, upon this subject, that the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature have considered this question thoroughly, and they are unanimous, as I understand it, in favor of the proposition offered by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey]. They believe that it is better in every possible sense for the people of this State to have a session of the Legislature but once in two years. It is perfectly well known, I apprehend, by the members of the legal profession in this Convention, that one of the greatest annoyances in the world and which occurs every year, is that the legislative provisions of this State are continually changing. No man knows until he gets possession of the Session Laws and goes through and through, reading them from beginning to end, anything about what our law is, and how many changes have been made. They are frequently made with a view to accommodate particular cases, and the rules of evidence are changed to

meet cases that are about to be commenced. I on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature has They change the rules of evidence about cases been referred to, and it is therefore not improper that have been long pending. And in that man- for me to say that they have provided in their report ner legislation has been going on for years, with that the Governor may call a special session of this constant and vexatious interference by the the Legislature at any time when he shall see fit to Legislature, with the rules of evidence, and other do so, stating in his proclamation the purposes provisions existing at the time the right of action and object for which it is called, and that the in many cases accrued. I hope this amendment Legislature shall do no other business. will prevail. It is intended on the part of the committee I named to report other amendments in regard to this change, and with a view to carry it out. It seems to me we can hardly do much better than to acopt this provision; it will have one effect, which I think members cannot fail to see, and which is very desirable. It will, at all events, relieve the House for one year from the third branch. They will be compelled to go abroad and enter into some occupation and support themselves for one year without depending on the Legislature, and a good many of them will perhaps commit suicide in the mean time, and the balance will probably return to some honorable business or calling that will keep them away from the halls of the Legislature, and for that reason I think it is very desirable this experiment should be tried.

Mr. C. C. DWIGHT-I desire to say I am in favor of the proposition, and to make a single suggestion. As I understand it, the Legislature elected in the manner proposed by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey] will hold their office for two years; and it will be within the province of the Governor, under the article reported by the committee on that subject, to call an extra session of the Legislature should any contingency arise to make it necessary, at other than the time appointed for the regular session.

Mr. ANDREWS-This is a new proposition to me, and I think it will be wholly new to the people of the State. So far as I am advised, no representation upon this subject has been made to this body, nor has this matter received public attention or discussion. I agree, sir, that it is eminently desirable to limit the legislation of the State, and, while I say that, I must also say that, in my judgment, the vast and varied interests of this State, which is in itself almost an empire, require the annual assembling of a Legislature in which is reposed the entire law making power. Now, sir, I think we should limit, as far as we can, the subjects of legislation; but I am entirely opposed to prohibiting the annual assembling of the Legislature when, as we know from the experience of the past, it would have been impossible to have carried along the great public questions in this State which have arisen during the last five years without an annual assembling of the Legislature. Sir, it is because the public exigencies in a State like this often require the frequent assembling of the body of the Legislature that I am in favor of continuing the present system.

And, sir, what are we to do? Are we to abrogate substantially, for the period of two years, the supervisory power of the Legislature over the public officers of the State and over all the great interests which are committed to their charge?

Mr. RUMSEY-Will the gentleman allow me to interrupt him? The report of the Committee

Mr. ANDREWS-If it should turn out that the Governor himself, unfaithful to the interests of the State, ought to be impeached and removed from that position, I submit that the difficulty and the necessity would not be met by relying upon that officer to convene the Legislature for the purpose of deposing him. I have but this morning taken up the Journal of the Debates of the Convention in Michigan, which are sent to my colleague [Mr. Alvord], and this very subject is a matter of discussion. In that State, where biennial sessions of the Legislature have for a long time been held, I notice a statement in the speech of Mr. Lathrop, Attorney-General of that State, that, although he was originally strongly in favor of that measure, experience has shown to him that it has an unwise limitation of the power of that body, and for those reasons, Mr. Chairman, and because it is a novelty in respect to the Legislature of this State, I am opposed to the proposed amendment.

Mr. FULLER-I agree with the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Andrews] that the people have not called for this change, and they do not expect it. I learn another fact from some consultation with my constituents who come down here occasionally from the western part of the State, and that is that there is a sentiment growing up in that part of the State, and daily increasing, that the people will not be inclined to ratify any Constitution which this Convention will probably make, and I think therefore we had better avoid these sweeping changes. Again, sir, I do not think that the proposed amendment will remedy the evil which the gentleman from Cayuga [Mr. Rathbun] complains of. The only effect of having biennial sessions will be to double the length of the sessions when they come, and to double the business of the sessions. You will have just double the amount of laws passed at one session that you do now; it will not remedy the evil complaimed of, and the Legislature, instead of sitting three or four months, as they do now, will sit six or eight months, and do double the work. That will be substantially the effect of passing the proposed amendment. I think therefore that, as at present advised, I should have to go against it.

Mr. PAIGE-This proposition strikes me favorably. In reference to there being a demand for legislation in the alternate years, that objection has been answered by two delegates, the Governor having the power to make a special call of the Legislature on any particular exigency. Then in reference to the other objection, that the Legislature, sitting only once in two years, the session will be doubled in its length. I do not agree in that conclusion. I think the Legislature sitting only once in two years, would sit no longer than if they sat every year. It seems to me that the crying evil of the time is excessive

legislation, and this proposition is one which Add to section five, at the end thereof, "No commends itself, I think, to the favorable consid-member of either branch of the Legislature shall eration of the Convention and of the people.

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Rumsey and it was declared lost.

The CHAIRMAN announced the pending question to be on the first part of Mr. Merwin's amendment, as follows:

"SEC. 4. The Assembly shall consist of one hundred and thirty-nine members, who shall be annually elected. The members of Assembly shall be apportioned among the several counties of the State by the Legislature, as nearly as may be, according to the number of their respective inhabitants, excluding aliens, and shall be chosen by single districts. The apportionment as now established by law shall remain until another enumeration and apportionment as hereinafter provided."

either directly or indirectly, demand or receive from any source, any other or additional compensation of any character or description, than that above provided, for any services rendered by him in relation to any matter before the Legislature or any of the committees thereof, during the time for which he was elected. And any member who shall, either directly or indirectly, demand or receive any such other additional compensation, his seat shall be declared vacant, and he shall be deemed guilty of bribery and corruption, and punishable therefor."

Mr. GREELEY-I move the following substitute:

SEC. 5. "The Senators shall receive no compensation other than the consciousness of honorable usefulness, and the resulting gratitude of their

Mr. SEYMOUR-I ask for a division of the fellow-citizens." latter clause. As it now reads it provides for the The CHAIRMAN-The Chair is of the opinelection by single districts, and I ask for a division that the amendment of the gentleman from ion before that.

Mr. WEED-I understand the only difference between this and the original proposition is the question whether we will elect by single districts or by counties.

Mr. SEYMOUR-This adds that the counties shall elect by districts. If you stop short of the last provision, then you will have the provision of the committee, and that is the whole distinction there is in it. If you substitute this for the action of the committee, you substitute single districts for election by counties. If you vote this down, it stands counties.

The question was then put on the first part of Mr. Merwin's amendment, and it was declared lost, on a division, by a vote of 41 to 74.

The CHAIRMAN then announced the question to be on the last part of Mr. Merwin's amend

ment.

Mr. MERWIN-The last part of the proposition is of no importance now, and I withdraw it. Mr. BARKER-I move to strike out of lines four and five the following words: "who are citizens of the State," and insert in the place thereof "excluding aliens," so as to have it comply with the section as the committee reported it last night.

The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Barker and it was declared carried.

Mr. MERRITT-On the fourteenth line of the same section make the same change. There being no objection the correction was ordered to be made.

The SECRETARY then proceeded to read the fifth section, as follows:

Westchester [Mr. Greeley] is not now in order. The proposition of the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Schoonmaker] being to add to this section, this cannot be regarded as an amendment to the amendment.

Mr. L. W. RUSSELL-I move this as a substitute to the amendment offered by the gentleman from Ulster [Mr. Schoonmaker].

The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amendment, as follows:

"No Senator or member of Assembly shall draw his pay until the close of the session, wheu he shall take his oath or affirmation that he has not received or agreed to receive, nor does he expect to receive any money or other property for his vote or other official action as such Senator or member of the Assembly. If he fails to take such oath or affirmation he shall forfeit his pay, and be ineligible to re-election."

The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Russell and it was declared adopted.

The question was then put on the amendment of Mr. Schoonmaker, and it was declared carried.

Mr. GREELEY-I propose now to strike out the words "members of the Legislature" in the beginning of the first line, and insert as follows: The SECRETARY again read the amendment as follows:

"SEC. 5. The Senators shall receive no compensation, other than the consciousness of honorable usefulness, and the resulting gratitude of their fellow-citizens."

Mr. GREELEY-I propose no experiment, no novelty. The best legislative bodies ever since there were such, have been unpaid bodies. The SEC. 5. "The members of the Legislature shall most honorable, the most useful and the most inreceive for their services an annual salary of one fluential legislative bodies to-day are unpaid. No thousand dollars, and ten cents for each mile member of the British Parliament ever receives they shall travel in going to or returning from their place of meeting by the most usual route. The Speaker of the Assembly shall receive an additional compensation equal to one-half his salary as a member."

Mr. SCHOONMAKER-I. have a proposition

to amend.

pay for his services, or would receive it. He has not any office. If he takes office he instantly vacates his seat as a member of Parliament, and has to be re-elected. I propose there shall be one branch of the Legislature, a small body, composed of men who are willing to serve the public without compensation. They need not be

The SECRETARY proceeded to read the amend-rich men. There are poor farmers who will serve ment, as follows:

'honorably and usefully, because they believe it