The CHAIRMAN-The Chair will inform the gentleman that his amendment is not now in order. Mr. CORBETT-Then I move that the committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The CHAIRMAN-That motion is in order. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Corbett, and it was declared carried, on a division, by a vote of 46 to 43. Whereupon the committee rose, and the PRESIDENT resumed the chair in Convention. Mr. BELL, from the Committee of the Whole, not make it exclusive in the board, it rests with nance with the wishes and sentiments of this body. the Legislature just where it has been. The pro- as I gather them from the debate so far, and 1 vision which it is now proposed to strike out, was think the committee will be ready to report tomade in obedience to what was supposed to be a morrow morning. As a matter of courtesy, then, general demand to transfer this power from the I ask that the further consideration of this quesLegislature to the boards, and make it exclusive, tion be postponed until we hear the report of so that the Legislature could not act on these Committee No. 12. matters which are given to the board. That is the explanation the committee offers for making the provision. I wish to say a single word further, while I am up, in regard to this amendment. The gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker] and the gentleman from New York [Mr. Loew] seem to have fallen into the error that because certain sections are numbered in this article-number 1 and 2, etc., as they are numbered in the present article, that they are intended to be substitutes for them in the order in which they stand. That was not the design. Section 2 in the article re-reported that the committee had had under conported by the committee had reference to the appointment, tenure of office, etc. of district attorney, and nothing else; but, as that office was incorporated in the first section, as amended, making the office elective, the second section should be stricken out; and the amendment offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Loew], and advocated by the gentleman from Chautauqua [Mr. Barker], should have been a substitute for section 1. The plan of the article is this: Section 1 provides for county officers, section 2 provides for the appointment of district attorney, section 3 prescribes town officers, and section 4 is substantially a substitute for sections 2, 3, 4, and 5 in the old Constitution. That was the plan of the committee, and as this mistake seems to have been made by gentlemen I wish it to be corrected and not to have it supposed that the committee thought, in reporting section 2, that they were making a substitute for section 2 in the old Constitution. sideration the report of the Committee on Town and County Officers, other than Judicial, etc., had made some progress therein, but, not having gone through therewith, had instructed their chairman to report that fact to the Convention, and ask leave to sit again The question was put on granting leave to sit again, and it was declared carried. Mr. FOLGER-I ask leave of absence for Mr. M. H. Lawrence, of Yates county, for the rest of this week. No objection being made, leave was granted. WEDNESDAY, August 14, 1867. The Convention met at 10 o'clock A. M. Mr. CLINTON presented the petition of C. T. Hasbrook, and fifty-two others, inhabitants of Hughsonville, for the separate submission of a clause prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquor as a beverage. Which was referred to the Committee on Adulterated Liquors. Mr. HAND presented the petition of the Lisle Temperance Association, comprising over six hundred and fifty members, citizens of Lisle and the adjoining towns of Broome county, on the same subject. Which took a like reference. Mr. CORBETT-Before proceeding any further I would request the gentleman from Seneca [Mr. Hadley] to withdraw his amendment. If gentlemen will turn their attention to rule seven they will see that it relates to "town and county officers, their powers and duties." Now, I admit that it is the province of this committee to define the duties of a supervisor as a town officer, but instead of that the committee has followed him into the board of supervisors and defined his duty there. Not only that, but they have also pointed out the mode of the organization of the board of supervisors and defined its duties-a subject which, I think, does not properly come within the jurisdiction of that committee. They have trenched upon the powers of Committee No. 12; and, while I commend the gentleman's zeal, I desire him to understand that I have so much respect for the report of the committee on which I have the honor to serve that I would prefer not to associate it with his, especially when I consider the treatment his report has received thus far. I choose to have it stand on its own merits, and come in as an independent report. I desire to say, further, without at all indicating the Which was referred to the Committee on the character of the report which will come from Finances of the State, and ordered to be printed. Committee No. 12, or anticipating its formal pre- The PRESIDENT also presented a communisentation to the Convention, that I believe our cation from the State Engineer and Surveyor, in treatment of this subject will be fully in conso-answer to a resolution adopted by the Convention. Mr. VEEDER presented the petition of Henry Reitzheimer, and four hundred and fifty-six others, citizens of Brooklyn, asking for the passage of uniform laws in reference to the sale of liquors. Which took a like reference. The PRESIDENT presented a communication from the commissioners of taxes and assessments of New York city, in answer to a resolution adopted by the Convention. Which took a like reference, and was ordered, possess and exercise such powers of local taxation to be printed. Mr. HADLEY-The Committee on the Organization of Counties, Towns and Villages, their Powers, etc., beg leave to present the following report, being a report of the majority of that committee. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the report, as follows: as now is, or hereafter may be prescribed by law. The undersigned, believing that the provisions of the present Constitution relative to legislation by boards of supervisors, are sufficient, does not concur with the majority of the committee in recommending any change in that respect. He only concurs in that portion of the report which recommends a similar restriction of the Your Committee on Counties, Towns and Vil-power of towns and counties to loan its credit or lages, their Organization, Government and Pow-money to individuals or corporations, etc., as the ers, believing it unwise to make changes in the Convention has already adopted with respect to fundamental law of a State, unless experience has the power of the Legislature in that respect. demonstrated the necessity of such changes, re- Dated, August 14, 1867. spectfully REPORT: That they have been unable to discover any demand or necessity for any change in the organization or government of the counties, towns or villages within this State, which is not within the power of the Legislature to make, and therefore your committee do not recommend any amendment of the existing Constitution in relation to those subjects. WILLIAM WICKHAM. Mr. E. BROOKS-I move the report be referred to the Committee of the Whole. The PRESIDENT-It will be if so desired. The entire report will be referred to the Committee of the Whole. Your committee, in the discharge of their duty, in view of the growing tendency to create debt, see, or think they see, a necessity for imposing some restrictions upon the power of counties, towns and villages to loan their credit to corporations. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-The standing commitYour committee also believe that there is a de-tee on the Pardoning Power respectfully report mand and necessity for increasing the powers of the section attached hereto, and recommend that boards of supervisors to legislate in relation to the same be adopted as a section of the article of the local and internal affairs of their respective the Constitution in relation to the Executive. counties, and the towns and villages therein, and in accordance with these views, have instructed their chairman to report the following provisions and recommend the adoption thereof. Dated, August 14, 1867. S. G. HADLEY, Chairman, SEC. There shall be in each of the counties of this State (except the city and county of Now York) a board of supervisors, elected in such manner, and for such period, and composed of such numbers, as is or may be provided by law. The boards of supervisors shall possess and exercise the power to legislate in relation to the local and internal affairs of their respective counties and the towns and villages therein: Subject, however, to such rules and regulations as the Legislature may prescribe; and it shall be the duty of the Legislature at the first session thereof after the adoption of this Constitution to prescribe such rules and regulations by general laws. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the report, as follows: The standing committee on the Pardoning Power respectfully report the section attached hereto, and recommend that the same be adopted as a section of the article of the Constitution in relation to the Executive. The section recommended by the committee is the fifth section of the fourth article of the present Constitution of the State, and differs only in details from the provisions on the same subject in the Constitution adopted in 1822. By the present Constitution and by the third section reported by the Committee on the Governor and Lieutenant-Governor, and adopted by the Committee of the Whole of this Convention, it is made the duty of the Governor to "take care that the laws are faithfully executed." This responsibility is not shared by the Governor with any other functionary. And as this duty is devolved on him alone, it is the Governor alone who is prepared to judge how far it may be safe, from time to time, to remit the penalties imposed upon those convicted of crime, consistently with the preservation of the public peace and with the general - No county, town, or village now exist-"faithful execution of the laws." It was this coning or hereafter organized, shall in any manner sideration, doubtless, which originally led the give any of its property or money, or loan its people of the State to invest the Governor with credit to or in aid of any individual, association, the exclusive power of granting pardons, and the or corporation; nor directly or indirectly become a stockholder in any association or corporation; nor shall any county, town, or village, in any manner guarantee any obligation of any individual, association, or corporation. §. Counties, towns and villages shall severally same consideration has doubtless led to the lodging of the power of pardon in the same hands in twenty-nine other of the States of this Union. The vast and constantly increasing population of the State, modified as it is by our peculiar commercial and geographical position, furnishes a large number of cases of application for pardon | important bearing upon the subject under conannually, for investigation and decision, and neces- sideration: the whole number of convictions in sarily imposes upon the Governors of the State an courts of record during the last twenty years is amount of labor truly formidable. The commit- 35,572, while the whole number of pardons, other mittee would gladly have adopted some means, than from jails and penitentiaries, was but 2,149, were any deemed safe and practicable, by which and the whole number from all places but 2,915, to lighten the burdens thus resting upon the Ex- or not more than one in fifteen of the persons ecutive of the State. But the committee were convicted in courts of record; and little would unable to devise any scheme which seemed to be hazarded in saying that the proportion of perthem so likely to secure the various objects sons pardoned for convictions in inferior courts sought to be accomplished by the creation of a would be much less. The whole number of appower for the remission or modification of sen- plications for pardons during the last sixteen tences imposed upon persons convicted of crime. years is 5,645, or an average of about 353 per In most if not all of the States where a Council year; so that it appears that less than one-half exists, whose duty it is to act with the Governor of the applications for pardon have been successin relation to the granting or refusing of pardons, ful. In a word, something in the cases of one the duties of the Council are merely advisory, and the final responsibility of granting or refusing the pardon rests with the Governor. So that the Governor must, in those States, fully investigate every application presented, and perform the additional duty of participating in the discussions of a collection of gentlemen who can only give advice, but who are really to share no part of his responsibility; so that the establishment of a Council to act in connection with our Chief Executive in relation to pardons would only tend to largely increase executive labor and care. The committee consulted ex-Governors Fish, Morgan and Seymour, and His Excellency Governor Fenton, and all these gentlemen, with the exception of ex-Governor Fish, fully concurred in the view last expressed. in six or seven of those convicted in courts of record has induced an application for pardon, and one in fifteen of those so convicted has been successful in his application. But it must not be supposed that the pardons granted have relieved the persons pardoned from all punishment. It will be found that it has been exceedingly rare that any person has been pardoned until after suffering a considerable portion of the punishment imposed by the court, and in most instances only after the term of imprisonment had more than half expired. What is called pardon is really a remission of a portion only of the sentence imposed. In many cases convictions have been had for offenses, the punishment for which as prescribed by law was five or ten years, where an examinaEx-Governor Seymour was kind enough to tion of the case showed that but little come from his home to the Capitol and personally moral guilt comparatively was really involved in explain to the committee the working of our the act which caused conviction; but the court present system, as witnessed by himself during had no power to impose a less sentence than imhis official experience, and to state to the com- prisonment for five or ten years, and although the mittee that, in his opinion, although the posses-judge imposed the sentence required by law, both sion of the pardoning power imposed upon our the judge and district attorney have united in a Governors the most laborious and painful duties recommendation for a pardon at an earlier day which a man can be called upon to discharge, yet from the nature of our government the power could not be safely lodged in other hands, nor its responsibility be safely divided. That all which, in his opinion, could be safely done to lighten a Governor's labors would be for the Legislature of the State to provide the means from time to time to enable the Governor to ascertain, through a suitable clerk or agent, the truth or falsehood of the allegations on which the applications for pardon are based. The committee concur in the view that such aid should be furnished to the Executive, but as they believe the Legislature will always provide adequately for the necessary expense of the Executive department they have not deemed any new constitutional provision necessary to secure the end indicated. An examination of the statistics furnished shows that the whole number of pardons granted during the last twenty years is 2,915; of this number 766 were pardons for petty offenses of persons confined in jails and penitentiaries, and who were doubtless mostly convicted in courts other than courts of record; so that the whole number of pardons, for all grades of offenses, have averaged less than one hundred and fifty per year for the last twenty years. Another fact has an than the expiration of the sentence. Another frequent cause of pardon is the failure of health in consequence of imprisonment in the case of persons who were not known as old offenders. In looking over the history of pardons in this State for the last twenty years, the committee believe that it will be found that the power has been very carefully, judiciously and conscientiously used, and that although cases can be found where the exercise of clemency has set at liberty most wicked and undeserving criminals, such cases have occurred through the fault of the neighbors of the criminal too readily joining in recommendations too favorable to the prisoner. But these cases have been so rare as to give no occasion to fear that the public interest will suffer by leaving the pardoning power in the hands of the same functionary where it has rested for the last forty-five years. ALBANY, August 13th, 1867. MARTIN I TOWNSEND, ALEMBERT POND, (By direction,) M. H. LEE, "SEC. -. The Governor shall have the power to grant reprieves, commutations and pardons after conviction, for all offenses except treason and in cases of impeachment, upon such conditions and with such restrictions and limitations as he may think proper, subject to such regulations as may be provided by law relative to the manner of applying for pardons. Upon conviction for treason he shall have power to suspend the execution of the sentence until the case shall be reported to the Legislature at its next meeting, when the Legislature shall either pardon or commute the sentence, direct the execution of the sentence, or grant a further reprieve. He shall annually communicate to the Legislature each case of reprieve, commutation, or pardon granted; stating the name of the convict, the crime for which he was convicted, the sentence and its date, and the date of the commutation, pardon or reprieve. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-The Committee upon the Pardoning Power make a supplemental report in respect to two resolutions which were referred to them for consideration and examination, one offered by Mr. Bickford and the other offered by Mr. Lapham, both looking to the establishment of an inferior tribunal for the granting of pardons in many cases. The committee have come to the conclusion, and have considered the subject of these resolutions, and have reported on them in their principal report; and they now ask to be discharged from the further consideration of the subject, and that it be referred to the same Committee of the Whole having charge of the principal report. Mr. DALY — Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question? As I understand the report, the proportion of pardons to crimes is as two thousand to thirty-two thousand. Am I right in that? Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-It is not strictly so. The applications for pardon are only reported since 1849, including a period of seventeen years, .while the convictions are reported for twenty years, for three years more. The number of convictions in twenty years are thirty-five thousand. The pardons are about twenty-nine hundred in all, and the convictions in the courts of record are thirty-five thousand and odd, and the pardons of persons supposed to be convicted in courts of record amount to about twenty-one or twenty-two hundred. in the files (I do not remember the document), and also in volume 2 of the Manual. Mr. TAPPEN-I offer a resolution. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the several standing committees not heretofore reporting, present their reports to the Convention on or before the 21st of August, unless otherwise directed by the Convention. Mr. HARRIS-I rise to debate that resolution. The resolution, giving rise to debate, was laid on the table. Mr. CHESEBRO-I offer a resolution. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution as follows: Resolved, That the Senate Committee, who have reported to this Convention the testimony in regard to the management of the canals of this State, and the departments, etc., contained in Document No. 40, be requested, as soon as practicable, to furnish to this Convention the evidence taken by them upon those subjects since the date of their report, and also a report of their conclusions upon said evidence, and that the same be printed for the use of this Convention. Laid over under the rule. Mr. MORRIS-I offer a resolution. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the standing committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature be directed to consider the advisability of requiring the Legislature to pass laws allowing divorces from the marriage tie, for adultery, cruel and inhuman treatment, habitual drunkenness, and desertion for seven years, in addition to such other causes as the Legislature may deem good and sufficient. Which was referred to the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature. Mr. POND-I offer a resolution. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the Committee on Revision, to whom has been referred the proposed article "on the Organization of the Legislature," etc., be instructed to amend section of said article, by inserting therein, after the word "route" in the fourth line of said section, and before the word "the," the following: "But the members of the Senate, when the Senate shall sit in the court for the trial of impeachment, shall receive such compensation therefor as may be provided by law." Mr. DALY-The question I desire more particularly to ask my friend from Rensselaer [Mr. M. I. Townsend) is this: Have the committee Mr. GREELEY-If that is a resolution of inascertained the nature of the crimes pardoned in struction, I rise to debate it. If it is simply a the two thousand pardons or three thousand par-resolution of inquiry, I shall not. dons, as compared with the thirty-two thousand The resolution was laid over under the rule. convictions, it being a matter of familiar knowledge that thirty-two thousand convictions embrace all classes of offenses that are capable of pardon? The question I propose more particularly to ask for the information of this Convention in passing upon this important question is, whether the committee can give us any information as to the nature or degree of the crime to which pardons have been extended? Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND-I think the gentleman from New York [Mr. Daly] will find in the report from the Governor, on our files, the query that he propounds substantially answered. It is printed Mr. MERRILL-I offer the following resolution: Resolved, That debate in Committee of the Whole on the article now under consideration be limited to ten minutes to each speaker, and to five minutes in the Convention, and that in Convention but one speech in favor and one against each amendment proposed shall be permitted. Mr. FOLGER-I propose to amend the resolution, as follows: Strike out all after the word "Convention" first occurring. The question was put on the amendment of Folger, and it was declared carried. Mr. KRUM-I move to strike out minutes," and insert "twenty minutes in Committee of the Whole." "ten | Legislature to confer such power of local legislathe tion on the administration as they shall from time to time prescribe. Mr. MERRILL-My object was not so much to limit the time to ten minutes as to fix some limit: and the time I have named seems to me ample. Let the Convention fix what time it pleases. The question was put on the amendment of Mr. Krum, and it was declared lost. The question then recurred on the original resolution of Mr. Merrill, as amended, and it was declared carried. Mr. M. I. TOWNSEND I want to ask leave of absence for myself for ten days, commencing to-morrow. Mr. BICKFORD-I want to hear some reason. SEVERAL DELEGATES- No, no. The question was then put on granting leave of absence to Mr. Townsend, and it was declared carried. Mr. N. M. ALLEN-I desire to ask leave of absence for myself until Tuesday next. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. BARKER-I ask leave of absence for Mr. Bowen, of Niagara, for the remainder of this week. No objection being made, leave was granted. Mr. LANDON-I offer a resolution, and I ask that it may lie over. The SECRETARY proceeded to read the resolution, as follows: Resolved, That the Committee of Five, upon the Revision of the Form and Phraseology of the Constitution, be instructed to strike out the words "four years," and insert "two years" as the term of office of Senators, in the article adopted by the Convention relative to the Legislature, its Organization, etc., and adapt the article to correspond with this alteration. Which was laid on the table. Mr. CORBETT-I rise to a point of order. I understood the amendment was withdrawn last night by the gentleman from Seneca [Mr. Hadley], and I do not understand the gentleman offers it this morning. Mr. HALE-The amendment was offered by myself and was not withdrawn by me. The CHAIRMAN-The Chair decides the point of order not well taken. The gentleman from Essex [Mr. Hale] will proceed. Mr. HALE-I was about to say that this seventeenth section of the third article enables the Legislature to confer whatever power of local legislation and administration they may see fit to on these boards, and that, it strikes me, is ample for the purpose desired. The substitute offered by the gentleman from Seneca [Mr. Hadley] I have no personal objection to. I would accept it as an amendment to my proposition; but I think there is a disposition in this committee to retain the language of the old Constitution so far as it can be done. I prefer therefore to let a vote be taken on that substitute, and if it is adopted by the committee I shall support it. Mr. E. BROOKS-I hope the amendment of my friend from Essex [Mr. Hale] will not be adopted by this committee. We have been some two months and a half in session in this Convention, and while the committees of this body, so far as they have reported in the discharge of their respective duties, have been building up, the Convention itself has just as rapidly been pulling down, so that what has been constructed by one part has been destroyed by the other. The indication, therefore, as far as the action of this Convention goes, is that the Convention itself has very little respect for the action of its committees. Now, sir, my hope has been that in a report such as the one The Convention again resolved itself into the now under consideration, and the one which was Committee of the Whole on the report of the Com-made this morning by the gentleman from Seneca mittee on Town and County Officers, other than [Mr. Hadley], to see some great work accomJudicial, their election, etc., Mr. BELL, of Jeffer- plished in preventing those legislative abuses son, in the chair. which have been the subject of general complaint The CHAIRMAN announced the pending ques- for a great many years past in this State. I have tion to be on the amendment of Mr. Hale to the very little confidence in any good which will grow sixth section of the report, to strike out that out of these high-toned expressions of morality. section and insert the one in the present Consti--the common-place moralities expressed in regard tution, as amended by Mr. Hadley, of Seneca. to the duty or action of the Legislature of this Mr. HALE-When I proposed the amendment State, and I have still less confidence that any I did not do so from any want of respect to the good will result from those penal enactments committee or want of appreciation for what they which have been adopted in the extra-judicial and have done. I think the article reported bears the judicial oaths which have been prescribed here for marks of being very carefully and very well drawn, our consideration. I believe that to accomplish but the theory upon which the committee have good legislation you are to take from public mon proceeded is one I cannot approve. Their theory the power to do evil. You are so to act here is that it is expedient to confer upon boards of that our legislators will not have the temptation supervisors additional and exclusive powers of to do evil; and to accomplish so important a legislation. My own impression is that such a result as this, you are to abridge, in a very large measure, instead of being a check upon corrup- degree, the powers of the Legislature itself. tion here, would only tend to diffuse it more Now, sir, the amendment which is pending, generally throughout the State, and that not and which proposes to re-enact that provision of much additional power should be conferred upon the Constitution of 1846 which says that "the boards of supervisors. It may be that there are Legislature may confer upon the boards of supersome subjects upon which their jurisdiction might be extended, but the present article of the Constitution, section 17 of article 3, enables the visors of the several counties of the State such further powers of local legislation and administration as they shall from time to time prescribe, |