Mr. HALE-I accept it.

Mr. RUMSEY-I offer the following amend

the boards of supervisors, the Legislature shall not exercise any portion thereof. The Legislature may alter, modify or repeal such general laws.

will not accomplish any substantial good. Sir, my answer to my friend from Essex [Mr. Hale] is precisely this: that for twenty years the Legment: islature of this State has had power to prevent SEC.. The Legislature shall confer upon the vicious legislation and has failed entirely to exert boards of supervisors of the several counties of that power, and now to re-enact this provision of the State such powers of local legislation and adthe Constitution of 1846, is to leave things pre- ministration as it shall from time to time, by gencisely as they are, and rather invite than to eral laws, applicable to all the counties in the abridge those abuses of which there is an uni-State prescribe, and while such powers remain in versal complaint throughout the State. Now, sir, in lcoking over the reports upon our files, I find that there were about two hundred and fifty bills introduced into the Legislature last year Mr. RUMSEY-There is a good deal of diffiand affecting the interests of the city culty in settling upon what is a safe rule to preof New York. I find there were scribe with regard to the powers of the board of seventeen hundred bills introduced into the supervisors. It is manifest that with the little Legislature of 1866, and about one thousand of experience we have had with regard to the exerthat number were signed by the Governor, and cise of this power by these boards, we have that they cover over two thousand folio pages. no knowledge by which we can be guided in beThe gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] having stowing this power upon these officers. It is and a very large experience in the Legislature of this has been a mere experiment, and I apprehend State has said, and I have no doubt said very there are very few men willing to transfer this truly, that of this enormous list of acts alleged corruption that is charged upon the Legisnot fifty of the whole number related to lature from Albany to the various counties in this important public questions. Now, sir, if these State. I am not one of those who believe that things are to continue in the future as in the past, there is as much corruption in the Legislature as there is no hope of any redeeming legislation, is charged upon them, and think that a large unless this Convention takes a stand here, and share of the corruption charged at the door now, to prevent this excess of legislation by con- of the Legislature, belongs to those outside of it. ferring that degree of confidence upon the super-But that is not the question here. It is enough visors of the several counties which shall prevent to say it is a mere experiment, to trust the exerthis abuse. Sir. so far as I know, the wishes and cise of legislative power to the board of superwill of my constituents, as a whole they have visors; and I, for one, am unwilling to trust great hope in transferring power from the city of absolutely and arbitrarily the exercise of this Albany-from the Legislature of the State-to power which would thus be conferred upon them, these local boards. They believe there will be and cannot be taken away until the Constitution has great reform if this is done; and I believe if we been changed. For that reason I think it is wise re-enact the provision of the Constitution of 1846, that we leave to the Legislature, as we have we extend an invitation to continue the evil. I, heretofore left to them, the power to confer upon therefore, most earnestly hope the attention of the the board of supervisors the right to control such committee will be drawn to this proposition, and local legislation as may be properly conferred that its judgment will be against the re- on the several counties and reserve to the Legislaenaction of the provision which it is proposed to ture the right, if it should be found that it operates restore in the motion now pending. prejudically in the several counties, to reclaim to Mr. HADLEY-If in order, I would like to sub- the Legislature that power which is thus proposed stitute the section which I had the honor to pre-to be given to them. I would say further that sent this morning in the report of the committee for the substitute which I offered last evening. I think the section contained in the report presented this morning is a little more guarded and a little more amplified from that of last night, although it is substantially the same. There is a little difference in the phraseology. I therefore move to substitute that for the section proposed by me last evening.

The SECRETARY proceeded to read the section referred to by Mr. Hadley in the report presented by him this morning, as follows:

There shall be in each of the counties of the State (except the county of New York) elected in such a manner and for such a period as may be provided, a board of supervisors, who shall possess and exercise the power to legislate in relation to local and internal affairs of their respective counties and towns, subject, however, to such rules as the Legislature may prescribe; and it shall be the duty of the first Legislature after the adoption of this Constitution to prescribe such rules and regulations by general law.

this amendment, which I have offered as a substitute, is a proposition which the Committee upon the Powers and Duties of the Legislature have thought long upon, and had concluded to offer it as a portion of their report, but as this subject comes up here now, by their consent I offer it in this place.

Mr. BARKER-I wish the gentleman [Mr. Rumsey] to state the difference between his amendment and the one offered by the gentleman from Seneca [Mr. Hadley]. I cannot discover the difference.

Mr. RUMSEY-There is a difference in this regard that the amendment of the gentleman from Seneca [Mr. Hadley] provides that the board of supervisors shall have this power any way. It is to be controlled and affected to some extent by the Legislature, and the Committee on the Powers and Duties of the Legislature would provide that the Legislature shall have power to give it to them and reclaim it if found expedient.

Mr. CORBETT-The very distinction named by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey] was

considered in the committee, and we came to the | within which such boards can properly have conclusion that if it was left optional with the jurisdiction, and must be confined rigidly within Legislature to confer upon the board of super- county limits. Take the case, if you please, of the visors this power, none at all would be conferred. incorporation of a village, which it is said is a We have, therefore, reported affirmatively that mere local matter, and which, so far as territory the boards of supervisors shall, in the first in- is concerned, generally is a mere local matter. stance, have jurisdiction over local questions, How many interests outside of the county bounds subject to whatever rules and regulations the may be affected by it? The ownership of real Legislature may see fit to prescribe. There is no estate in a village, the ownership of personal officer known to our system of government whose estate affected by its charter and by-laws, is not relationship is more directly to the people than confined to the territorial limits of the village. the supervisor. There is no portion of our sys- There may be persons living all through the State tem of government so amenable to public senti- who may be interested in the village government ments as the board of supervisors. All the and its effects, in the taxes and assessments, the statements we have heard in this hall about cor-grading of streets, and all the acts of such a govruption in the Legislature have been accompanied ernment which may seriously affect the real and by the suggestion that the only remedy was to personal estate of non-residents. I give this as limit the jurisdiction of the Legislature over local an instance of what at first blush we would call subjects. Therefore, we propose by this report local legislation, which, when you look at it more to recommit to the local authorities jurisdiction closely, is, to an extent, legislation more than local. over local questions, so that the village shall con- Do you then, by local legislation, mean only that trol village affairs, and the town town affairs, the which shall affect merely the residents of the county county affairs, and confine the legislation county? If you do, you see at once how much at Albany to the general interests of the State. you circumscribe the power of boards of superThis is the proposition that the committee pro- visors. When you begin the consideration of pose, and I think it will recommend itself to the such a law, the first question is: What is the wisdom of this Convention, proper definition of "local ?" Legislators must fix Mr. FOLGER-The objects sought for that definition before they can determine what by this amendment, it appears to me, amount and scope of legislative power may well are twofold; one is, to diminish the bulk be given to boards of supervisors. Now, as to of legislation here in Albany, and the the amount of local legislation, if we look at the other is to diminish evil legislation here in session laws of 1866, we find that out of nine Albany. Now, will it reach those ends? Gen- hundred and ten laws passed in that year, three tlemen say that, although there has been a clause hundred and twenty-four of them, over one-third, in the Constitution of 1846, conferring upon the were for incorporating or amending the charters Legislature the power to give to boards of super- of different associations. Now, why is this? We visors the ability to legislate for localities upon have in the Constitution of 1846 a provision that questions affecting only their county, that power corporations may be formed under general laws, never has been exercised by the Legislature. To and shall not be created under special acts, except some extent it never has been exercised, but that for municipal purposes, aud in cases where in the does not prove that the question of exercising it judgment of the Legislature, the object of a corhas never been mooted and considered, and the poration cannot be attained under the general law. difficulties of exercising it proved. I have seldom In my judgment here is the root of the difficulty, known a winter in which the question has not and in an amendment of this provision will be been mooted, whether it would be better to adopt found the true method of repressing the bulk of general laws which would confer upon the board legislation in Albany. That method is to confine of supervisors some greater power of local legis- the Legislature rigidly to the enactment of general lation, and I have never known it mooted without laws, to thus confine it by an imperative injunc it received opposition from different quarters, from tion in the Constitution to that effect; not to say the fact that boards of supervisors, in the opinion it shall pass general laws, and then, as if afraid of certain gentlemen, were not a fit depository of the effect of that injunction, to add to it a for extensive power of legislation. In the first clause which gives to the Legislature the power place they say, and I think they say truly, that to to step outside of that prohibition whenever they give legislation to a single board-to one law- see fit. Take an instance. Immediately after making power-to one body is an entire the adoption of the Constitution in 1846, a denial and subversion of the whole theory of general law was passed (amended almost every legislation in a free government, which requires winter since) providing for the incorporation of two bodies, and sometimes a quasi third body, i. benevolent, scientific and religious societies. One e., the Executive, with a veto power, to be mutual to read it and its many amendments would think checks upon hasty and improper legislation. It that it and they were broad enough to cover all is quite certain that if such theory is good, you the cases which could possibly arise. But one or cannot achieve the practical effect of that theory two phrases in it, by allowing the Legislature to by giving legislative power to boards of super-use the discretion given by the Constitution, has visors. In the next place, waiving the considera-given rise to a vast amount of legislation. One tion to which I have just adverted, the power of those phrases is: All such associations shall be you can possibly confer upon boards of super-composed of citizens of the United States. Now, visors of local legislation must be very much re-in Westchester county, they want an act of instricted and circumscribed. It can only relate to corporation for a benevolent society and they those things that rise within territorial boundaries want a special charter, for what no one can tell,

all the members will be required to vote for any of these corporations, or it will not pass, and the votes recorded, and I have no fear that corrupt or mischievous legislation, to any great extent, will be effected through these boards. The interest of the supervisors who, as it has been well said, are the officers most directly amenable to the people of any we have; it embraces young men who hope they will arrive—

Mr. RUMSEY-May I ask the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. Greeley] a question? Do you propose to allow the board of supervisors to char. ter railroad companies in the county?

they cannot tell themselves, but they come here | Make your board of supervisors, as I hope we with a set of incorporators and one of the party shall make it, constituted so that three-fourths of is an alien, and we say, "Why do you not incorporate under the general law," and they say, "Some of our incorporators are aliens, and your general law forbids that," and so by that or some other as small device the discretionary power of the Legislature is appealed to and it is coaxed to step outside of the general law and grant this private act of incorporation, and you will see in looking at the Laws of 1866, under the title of "corporations," that almost nine hundred and twenty-four of those associations might just as well have been incorporated under some general law by filing the certificate in the Secretary of State's office. Now let me say that for the last two years the committees on charitable and religious societies in the two Houses of the Legislature reported I do not know how many of these private acts. I do not think a score would cover the bills to enable churches to sell real estate, and every lawyer in this Convention knows it is the easiest thing in the world for such a corporation to go to the supreme court and acquire by a very simple process, the power of selling its real estate. These committees reported in favor of them because they had this discretion by the Constitution. I might go on to state instance after instance where special legislation is sought for, where the end might be achieved under the general law, provided the Legislature were forbidden to pass such special law, when a general law might answer the purpose.

Here the gavel fell, the time of the speaker having expired.

Mr. GREELEY-That is in the bill here. And I answer that, if there are to be charters affecting localities, I certainly prefer to leave the power in the board of supervisors, under such regulations as we will make here, rather than leave it anywhere else. I prefer that the men on whose corns you are to tread shall elect the persons by whom those corns are to be stepped on. There is an advantage, I say, in that. In my county I would rather trust (and I will not praise our board of supervisors), I would rather trust the board of supervisors of Westchester county, under such restrictions as I propose with the power of leg. islating, on interests affecting that county, than any other body I know. I trust this proposition is to be so amended as to confer this power upon those boards, and then so regulated, and so restricted, that it cannot be exercised hurtfully. If we send it back to the Legislature, we shall encounter all the evils which have moved the people to send us here with the hope that they will be mitigated if not removed; and if we simply say our Legislature shall have power to do this and that we know very well it will do nothing; and the remarks just made by the eminent chairman of the judiciary committee [Mr. Folger] are that, in his judgment, they will practically do nothing; that the power had better be left to be exercised by the Legislature than have it exercised by the board of supervisors. His judgment will be controlling to a great extent upon that legislation; and I think to-day we must resolve that the board of supervisors shall substantially have this power of local legislation, or we shall dismiss all hope of any practical reform, such as the people, crying and suffering under improvident, wasteful, reckless and excessive legislation have sent us here to correct.

Mr. GREELEY-I rejoice that we find ourselves at last face to face with the main question, which is, whether this Convention shall prove a reforming body or not. The intimations have not been favorable thus far; but to-day we shall be able to make our minds up decidedly on the question. Now, in the first place, it seemed to me, when we came to a matter of legislation we should have to require every association that comes to this Legislature for the amendment of an act, or anything, to pay a certain sum of money into the treasury of this State, and send a certificate to the clerk that it has done so before its bill shall be allowed to come on the table of either house. But let us look at the question directly before us. What is the evil complained of essentially? It is this: That local privileges are required through the action of a body here whose members, or the great mass of them, have no interest pro or con to be affected by such legislation. A man comes here and wants a city railroad charter in New York-a horse railroad, and he says, through his instruments, to some eighty or ninety members, "Your constituents do not care what is done here; it does not affect them. Here are two hundred dollars for you if you will vote for it, and it will not make a particle of difference to you;" and the consequence is that an enormous mass of bills go through here that would not go through a body-I do not care how corrupt-com- Mr. RATHBUN-The proposition to amend posed of representatives elected by the people made by the gentleman from Steuben [Mr. Rumwho are to be affected by such legislation. That sey] I apprehend is preferable to the amendment is a difference I do not see taken into account in offered by the gentleman from Sencca [Mr. Hadsome of the propositions we have made here. ley], to provide that matters hereafter shall be

Mr. FOLGER-What improvident, reckless legislation does the gentleman [Mr. Greeley] have in mind, the subject-matter of which he would have intrusted to the board of supervisors?

Mr.GREELEY-All this legislation creating corporations, amending the charters of corporations, passing city railroad bills, and so on. Nine hundred, at least, out of every thousand of the bills passed last winter, I believe, either should have been passed by a local board or not at all.

submitted by the Legislature to the board of su- town interest and town feeling as any member of pervisors by a general law, leaving it to the the Legislature is of that of the county. They discretion and judgment of the Legislature to are a single body; they have no controlling conprescribe in what cases and to what extent that servative body; they have no veto power; they power shall be intrusted to a board of super-are governed like all men, by impulse. They are visors. Now, sir, the argument of the gentleman as liable to do hasty and inconsiderate things as from Onondaga [Mr. Corbett] in regard to anyone else. They are subject to the impulses the amendment offered by the gentleman from common to all men, and they can easily be brought Steuben [Mr. Rumsey] is that they are not will- to exercise the power without that due considering to intrust that discretion or the exercise of ation and caution which they would do if organthe power to the Legislature, but they propose to ized in the ordinary form and manner of a legisladirect specifically what it shall be, and then leave tive body. I submit that the power to be intrusted it to the Legislature to prescribe the manner and to the boards of supervisors of the counties means by which it is to be effected by the board should be of matters of a purely local character, of supervisors. Really, that amendment would such as roads and bridges, the division of towns, not succeed in doing anything if the Legislatures which they now have, and many other things of are so unfit to be intrusted in regard to what that character may properly be intrusted to them. shall be sent. The power shall be taken from Many things are intrusted to them now, but them to exercise any discretion, but the power is when you come to the idea of legislation, that the to be left with them to prescribe the manner in boards of supervisors shall be authorized to pass which the power is to be exercised, which is to laws, sixty odd legislatures in the State of New be given directly. Now, sir, if they are so cor- York engaged in passing laws, the thing is a perrupt in one sense that they will not transmit the fect absurdity; you could not imagine a greater power to the board of supervisors, can they be absurdity in my judgment. Sixty local legislaintrusted in the exercise of the power prescrib-tures in the State, each one passing laws, each a ing the mode and manner in which the board of single body under the impulse and pressure of a supervisors shall perform those things directly to local community in which they live, surrounded be transmitted to them by the Convention in the by the leading and influential men of the town Constitution. The result would be the same. If and county, and then ask them to exercise sound the Legislature believes that the power intended to discretion in matters of legislation, the thing is be conferred by the Constitution will be improperly not only absurd, but it is ridiculous in my judg. used by the board of supervisors they could easily ment. Now, while the Legislature should confer trammel it in such a way as to make it wholly on the boards of supervisors larger powers than inoperative, therefore, it is utterly impossible to they now have, they should be defined, and reescape this corrupt Legislature, because in one stricted to certain specific acts, not in the characsense they say "we will not transmit the power,' ,"ter of legislation, but the simple right to exercise and the other, "we will obey the injunction of the administrative power in regard to things affecting Constitution but will obey it in such a way as to only the people of the county and those in regard deprive the board of that power." That is not to minor matters. the way to get along with this proposition in my Mr. McDONALD-I am opposed to the amendjudgment. I know nothing about the corruption ment of the gentleman from Seneca [Mr. Hadley]. of the Legislature personally, and I have not been It gives jurisdiction to counties and boards of inside of the chamber when they have been here supervisors with regard to local matters. But it in twenty years. I took very little interest in the fails in this. It is simply concurrent jurisdiction, question further than public rumor circulates still leaving to the Legislature a like jurisdiction. through the country, and a part of that rumor I The amendment now offered by the gentleman am inclined to believe, and a part I know nothing from Steuben [Mr. Rumsey] directs the Legislaabout and am inclined not to believe. But one ture to give jurisdiction to towns and counties, thing I do believe, that, if the Legislature has and if they once give it, it becomes exclusive, been as corrupt as has been reported heretofore, until the law shall be repealed or amended. At that what has been and what will be done, the the proper time I shall offer an amendment power that will be taken from them in certain which will give to counties exclusive jurisdiccases, and especially in the cases referred to by tion of local matters. The difference between the the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. Folger] will two plans is this: one is concurrent, one is excluresult in vast improvement. The discretionary sive if and while granted, and the other is given power in regard to granting special charters absolutely and exclusively. Now what are the for corporations will be taken out of the Con-things to be remedied? Gentlemen talk about the stitution and from their jurisdiction altogether. Legislature being corrupt. The only trouble is I believe that a portion of the body of men who that the Legislature are but men, are human, and are to come here after they see the scathing ad- all persons do not know the temptation under ministered to the Legislature of the State of New which legislators act, and hence they cannot cerYork by members of this Convention, will be, tainly decide whether they themselves would not for some years at least, very cautious yield under like temptation. When you send a in giving ground for charging them new man here to enact a law that will not affect with corruption. I do not believe myself it is safe to confer on the board of supervisors of the counties of the State very extensive powers of local legislation. They are a single body. They represent towns, and they are as tenacious of

any one within two or three hundred miles of his home in any way or manner, and a brother member, a friend of his, says to him, "Here, now, you know nothing about our locality. I know all about it. This law only affects my locality.

particular locality in regard to measures concerning that locality. I would like to ask him if a member of the Legislature is not accountable to the locality he represents?

It does not in any way affect yours. I know all about it, and assure you, as a friend, it is just and right that this law should pass." I say, when you put a man under such influence, it is easy to see that, although honest, he trusts, as he thinks, Mr. McDONALD-Yes; but he is much more to the better judgment of the local member, accountable to about a dozen men who nominated and votes for the bill without any him than he is to the county. He also shelters knowledge whatever. Thus, if a local mem- himself under the whole Legislature. He says: ber favors any particular project, the balance "The Legislature all passed it. I was only one of of the members favor it almost as a matter a hundred and sixty." But if you provide for of course. If the Assemblymen and Senator local legislation, and leave the Legislature to debe in favor of any local matter it cannot possibly fine and regulate it, it seems to me, in the be beaten, provided always they are in the politi-words of the gentleman from Westchester [Mr. cal majority. The other members do not inquire Greeley], if anybody treads on the toes of the into it; they have no interest in it; they do not people they will have an opportunity of immecare anything about it. The trouble is, as diately knowing it, and pointing to where the rehas been well stated by the gentleman from sponsibility lies. It is the only way in which you Westchester [Mr. Greeley], that you ask a can get correct legislation. I do not suppose a body to legislate and determine with regard to board of supervisors is any more honest than a local affairs, who with the exception of two or Legislature. I do not suppose they are any less three, have no interest in and care nothing about honest. Will any gentleman answer this questhem. They are just as honest as anybody else, tion? Why ought not the local board of superbut they trust themselves to a neighbor, who visors to pass local laws that affect only the disknows they care nothing about the pending prop-trict under their control? Do they not know the osition or measure, but will act upon his sugges- wants of their own county? Are they not tions. Another trouble with the Legislature, as I immediately responsible? Would any Legislature understand it, is what is called log-rolling. The know more? Would it be less directly responcorrupt use of money is not so frequent or so great sible? These questions bring their own answer. an evil. Log-rolling is the greatest trouble-half a And in conclusion, I submit no good objection can dozen local measures are put together and one be urged against local legislation with regard to is made to pass the other, when no one of them local objects. could or would pass on its own merits. This Mr. S. TOWNSEND-There is one difficulty being the truth how shall we remedy it? We that appears to embarrass our discussions of the shall find our remedy by sending purely local report of this committee-that is: many of the matters to local legislatures, at the same time amendments and propositions that have been leaving with the Legislature power to pass gener-offered are not before us in print, and we are al laws under which these local legislatures shall unable to keep them all in our mind's eye. Yet act. In that way, it seems to me, you will pre-after all, we are to consider these different amendvent improper enactment of these special laws. ments merely as modifications of section seven Take the case with regard to the division of the reported by the committee, which undertakes to town of China, in the county of Wyoming, with prescribe and does prescribe with a great deal which the Senate two years ago were occupied for of minuteness the additional powers that are to several days. Now, this could have been done at be given to the board of supervisors. It is home better and cheaper; but some how or other, asserted that the board of supervisors has never the people seem to think that anything done by a exercised large powers. I am convinced that Legislature-being done by a larger body-is bet-those gentlemen must forget that our boards of ter done. That seems to be the idea. Often supervisors, as instituted four or five years ago, when it is desired to have anything done that is inaugurated and sanctioned most important legisagainst the will of the people, it is endeavored to lation in a pecuniary sense. And after all, pecuhave it done by somebody that does not know niary matters, next after life and liberty, are what what the will of the people is. I do not say this most concern us here. In relation to pecuniary was the fact with regard to the case referred to, matters, we all know the boards of supervisors but if that had been done in Wyoming county, of the several counties of our State during the it would have been known what was wanted and late war were far in advance of any legislation what was not wanted. The board of supervis- here, and inaugurated measures that involved ors could have acted with the knowledge of the their counties-in my own case, at least-ten or people, and would have had some interest in the fifteen per cent on the valuation of its assessed matter; or if they did not, their neighbors would property. In order to be warranted in that legishave, and they would have seen to it that the lation which was then illegal, but which I hope supervisors did know about it. I can get a dozen will not be so hereafter, they asked various citimen to sign a petition for anything, when they zene to guarantee that appropriate legislation dare not themselves personally assume the re- should follow their action. There is this much sponsibility. That is the trouble. A man is on that point. The board of supervisors have in willing to sign a petition, and will often sign a an emergency which we all remember, exercised petition for anything; when if he was to bear power unlimited alınost, so far as regarded their the personal responsibility, he would never have own counties. We propose to confer only powers done it. that exclusively relate to the business of counties, and not go beyond that. Again, there is objection made that the boards of supervisors

Mr. COLAHAN The gentleman says the Legislature is influenced by the member from a