is the one of "retiring allowances for land grant colleges," over which discussion Dean Davenport, of Illinois, will preside. This is a live subject. We have on our program for this afternoon Dean Orton's paper and it seems to me as though the agricultural men would be as much interested in that as we would be. It has been suggested by the presiding officer of the other body that we might, if desirable, meet with the A. A. A. C. E. S. this afternoon and carry over the balance of the program of this afternoon. But if we do that, it seems as though we should have a separate meeting here this evening in order to not omit the reading of several valuable papers.

After some discussion as to what arrangement might be made with regard to the program of ensuing meetings, the following action was taken:

DEAN JACKSON.-I move that the Secretary be authorized to arrange for this joint program this afternoon, and arrange an evening program or not, as he may think best; that if he finds it desirable to make a program for this evening he shall announce the same during the joint meeting this.afternoon.

The motion was seconded and carried.

CHAIRMAN REBER.-The discussion on extension work will be opened by Dean C. E. Ferris, of Tennessee.

DEAN FERRIS.-There is a question that has come to my mind with reference to this work. What does it cost to conduct extension work? We as engineers are always thinking about efficiency-the ratio of the work done to the cost of the work, and in an educational line it does not seem to me that we have any line of work so efficient as this extension work, unless it be agricultural short course work. I would like to know what the cost amounts to for these extension courses.

Yesterday we had a very interesting discussion as to the purpose of the great statesman who organized land grant colleges-what he had in mind when he inaugurated them. I wonder sometimes what he would think of the work we are doing if he were here. After a student has completed his four-year course in agriculture he does not often become a farmer, but a salaried employee of his own state, or the Department of Agriculture. The man who takes a four-year course in engineering generally becomes a salaried employee of one of the great corporations. I think in that way we lose hundreds of valuable leaders to the great centers of population. Now I don't mean that we must not train leaders. We are doing that at a great deal of expense, and it is worth the cost. I believe a dollar will go further in extension work, increasing the efficiency of our citizens, than in our present scheme. I am very much interested to know from the Wisconsin people some figures on this matter, if they care to give them. I am sure that the great leader Morrill, in putting through this measure, had in mind direct service for the farmer and mechanic. Now, if that was his purpose, then we are responsible for carrying some of that fund to people who do not come to our halls to be trained. I am quite willing to admit that there is no precedent in educational history for the land grant college. If we go to Europe and take up extension work in connection with a university, the Germans will tell us that we are not conducting a university. It is the spirit of the land grant college to seek opportunity to do service that cannot otherwise be given.

In a community relatively a small number of men are able to go to college. There is a great number of very good men who for various reasons cannot go. Are these men, according to our interpretation of the Morrill act, to be excluded from the benefits of the land grant colleges?

Experience has shown that we can serve the farmers exceedingly well by the short course. Training of the same kind can be given men who are interested in engineering. Their work is of such character that they cannot leave their homes and take a month or two to attend college as the farmer may. It seems to me if we are to be of service to them, it must be by carrying the work to their homes by correspondence.

I feel very shy about appearing at all in this discussion, because we have done almost nothing along engineering extension in Tennessee, but our hearts are in the right place. Just now we are cooperating with the agricultural department, offering extension courses for farmers. We are also offering short courses to highway engineers whose work in the field in the winter is necessarily diminished, giving them an opportunity for study.

CHAIRMAN REBER.-In answer to Dean Ferris's questions, we have kept a careful account of the cost of giving instruction and we find that 50 cents covers the cost of two recitations. So that the correction of the papers amounts to about 25 cents a lesson. But you have to add to this costs to the departments of extension work, and the correspondence department, for spending a large percentage of their time in the preparation of tasks. I kept for several weeks an account and found that 43 per cent. was devoted to the preparation of original material.

The discussion will be continued by Dean C. H. Benjamin, of Indiana.

DEAN BENJAMIN.—Extension work in engineering is comparatively a new idea and our notions in regard to it are rather vague and shadowy.

To my mind it must be differentiated once for all from vocational secondary work of every description, from trade schools, night schools, correspondence schools, continuation schools, etc., etc.

Sub-collegiate or secondary training is something for which the college is not directly responsible. The divorce of preparatory schools and departments from our colleges and universities was an important step in the right direction.

The education of pupils in the grade schools is not by any means a preparation for college, it is necessarily in nine cases out of ten a preparation for life work. If it seems best for economic reasons to include in this education a certain amount of vocational or practical training, well and good. In my opinion even this is likely to be overdone, and the child taught to drive nails at the expense of his knowledge of English and arithmetic.

Be that as it may the college has as little call to meddle in vocational teaching as it has to interfere in the conduct of classes in geography or English grammar.

It does have the right to say what shall be the qualifications in any or all subjects for those who ask to enter its doors. When it can make the same demands in technical training that it makes in English and mathematics, the college curriculum will be dignified and simplified.

Do not understand me as saying that the college is not interested in vocational training; it is, deeply interested, just as it is interested in the teaching of the common English branches. It may well be adviser and friend but it is not responsible further.

Now if we eliminate the phases before mentioned, what is there left of extension work for the college to undertake?

As I understand it merely to carry its own gospel to those whom

circumstances or lack of inclination keep from its precincts. That is, its extension teaching should be of college grade and about subjects which are taught inside its walls; its mission should be not to children but to grown-ups who are not in college. They may or may not be well educated but they must be sufficiently intelligent to appreciate what the college has to give.

To my mind, the college loses dignity and caste by stooping to kindergarten and trade school methods.

Whether taught inside the walls or out, by correspondence or orally, the subjects presented in extension work should be such as may receive credit on the books of the college. This does not necessarily mean that these subjects are presented in the same manner as they would be in the college itself. The manner of instruction naturally varies with the class of students and their environment. Some can be reached by summer instruction at the college and some in neighborhood schools or centers. Even the correspondence method has its possibilities where other means fail, while subjects of general interest can be presented by lecturers throughout the state.

Extension work bears somewhat the same relation to the regular college activities that home missions bear to the work of the local church, and in its methods must be adapted to the circumstances which prevail.

I believe it is the duty of the land grant college to diffuse information in this way, so that it offers a college grade and not a secondary grade of instruction.

After reading the comprehensive report of the extension division at Wisconsin under the management of Dean Reber, I feel that in taking part in this discussion I may be rushing in where angels fear to tread. One object of so taking part is to stimulate contradiction and if I succeed in this, I shall not have entirely failed.

CHAIRMAN REBER.-Dean R. L. Wales, of Rhode Island, will continue the discussion.

DEAN WALES.-I may say that I feel no little hesitation in taking up a subject which has been so fully covered by the gentlemen who have preceded me; men who have had far greater experience than I have had so far, or than I may hope to have in the near future.

I shall attempt to present as briefly as possible some of the work which I have been able to carry on in the little State of Rhode Island. I shall attempt only to mention something of the type of our students and something of the consequent type of instruction which I have found necessary for this kind of work; something of the methods of presentation and just an idea or two of the fields open.

As far as the objects of our work are concerned, we have had three: First, to make the institution, in fact as well as in name, a state institution, to make the college take its normal place in the educational system of the state, to carry in a way education to the unfavored many, as well as to the favored few,-to reach the man who cannot go to college and take a four years' course; the only alternative seems to be to take the course to the man.

The second object was to provide a means of legitimate advertisement for the college. I say legitimate, because in this work the college has no selfish interest of self-aggrandizement. Its only idea was to carry its work to as many people as possible and extend its sphere of usefulness as far as possible.

(Right in this connection, when it seems that the support of agricultural sections is taking the ascendency and that of engineering is possibly on the decline, I hope there will be no mad rush for popu

larity on the part of the engineering sections. I hope everything done in this extension work will be done in a modest and dignified manner. I know that some movements get started from an entirely different view point.)

The third object that we had was to make use of the reflex action in the college itself, that is, to revive and invigorate life within the college walls, by allowing our professors to come in touch with the every day practical life of the state. I believe it will be a great benefit to our institution.

So far the scope of our work is very limited. Dean Reber had $125,000 for the year, and hoped to double that and get $250,000 for the next. I had practically nothing to spend and our extension work has consequently been small. Practically no correspondence work has been done. We have had class room work with engineering organizations, labor unions and associations formed especially for the purpose of taking up this work.

We have not attempted to carry on any work with young people. We have not attempted to reach those just coming out of grammar school and having vague notions that they want to become engineers. We have tried to reach the men who have practical experience and who know what they want and know when they get it.

As far as the type of engineers is concerned, possibly there is no real type. In age they range from 18 or 20 up to 70 years. Not only are they of various ages, but of experiences possibly even more widely varied. It is their experience and knowledge in a practical way that is the cause of the great difficulty, it seems to me, in providing the proper type of teacher to handle this work and carry it out satisfactorily. The teacher for this work must possess all the characteristics of a college professor, plus-and that plus carries with it a great deal. I had thought that in all probability this work, being of an elementary character, could be handled by a cheap instructor fresh from college, but it took me only a very short time to find out that the highest priced man available was none too good for this class of work. I find it tests the broadest training and the broadest practical experience that a man can bring to bear upon that field of knowledge to be successful.

If there is one characteristic necessary above another, as I observe the situation, it is a perfectly democratic personality.

As to the method of presentation of the work, I confess I have not solved the problem to my satisfaction at all. In the early part of my short experience I attempted to carry on progressive lectures on class work, starting entirely from the elementary and gradually working in more complicated conditions. However, I found this method of procedure not very satisfactory.

The objection to having the progressive series of class work talks is, that the engineer is a busy man. He may have a break down in the plant, which may interfere with his presence at any given meeting, and the consequence is that he will be very apt to lose the thread of the story and thereby lose his interest. In order to avoid this difficulty, I am now trying to make the work of any one evening as nearly complete in itself, and as little dependent upon preceding lessons as possible. With this plan the loss of our evening's work means no serious interruption of the course and the man will be able to come to the next meeting and get as much as possible from the discussion. I believe, as I said before, that one of the most fruitful methods of instruction is by inviting the asking of questions and stimulating discussion among the people themselves.

The fields open for extension work are very varied. In that way

the work of the extension departments differ from that of the engineering experiment station. The engineering experiment station must deal with a certain type of problems which will be practically the same from Maine to California, but the particular field for extension work will depend very largely on the locality and the interests particularly involved in a given part of the state. In one place interest may center about power plants and the metal industries and in another part of the state it may be in regard to an entirely different phase of engineering. So the field must be looked over and the man having this matter in charge should carefully decide upon it before the work is begun.

CHAIRMAN REBER.--Dean F. C. Shenehon, of Minnesota, is next on the program to discuss this subject.

DEAN SHENEHON.-The University of Minnesota is peculiarly in a position and exists under conditions which urge it towards extension. I speak of Minnesota as of the present time rather than of even a few years in the past.

In discussing this subject last year, I laid stress on the fact that President Vincent of our university is a son of Bishop Vincent who inaugurated the Chautauqua. I characterized the Chautauqua as one of the first and most important extension movements. I stated, moreever, that President Vincent is himself the present chancellor of the Chautauqua and that extension work is not only inbred with him, but it has become a habit. The University of Minnesota having at the helm of things a man of this kind it is clear that our course will be laid to the ultima thule of extension.

Even in the absence of a pilot whose purpose reached towards extension, the State of Minnesota has a reason for its extension proclivities in the fact that it lies next to the State of Wisconsin. Just a little river separates these two states, and Minnesota fears that if she does not do her own extension work Wisconsin will do it for her. At the west end of Lake Superior where the boundary line is an intangible barrier between these two states, it is reported that Wisconsin in its West Superior activities has actually overflowed in to the city of Duluth.

Extension work in Minnesota, however, is likely to be somewhat different in kind than extension work in Wisconsin, because the location of our university is urban, and some considerable portion of the extension work must be given to the dwellers in our large cities. The university is in the heart of half a million people in the cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul, and so far as engineering is concerned it is probable that our highest activity will be here, in the nature of night classes. For detached urban extension work our Duluth bears much the relation to our university that Milwaukee does to the University of Wisconsin. While Minnesota has a large rural population, and a considerable mining population, the fact that the urban population of the Twin Cities is immediately tributary to the university, must largely influence the nature of our extension work. We began last year without any extension organization. A professor of the school of education was delegated, so far as half of his time was concerned, to the direction of the extension movement. Of course, this divided responsibility did not bring the most satisfactory returns on the extension side of the division.

We worked also under the limitation of having substantially no funds for extension work. While general appropriations did exist for extension work, the college of engineering received no tangible portion of this appropriation. The services of the men who administered