BURNS, LAYTON, WHITE of B., MULLEN. Parts of the county who have inquired of me whether there were copies of the Debates to be furnished. I had ten copies at my disposal, and I have distributed them as nearly as I could, in different parts of the county, to men who I supposed took an interest in them, and I have not met one of those gentlemen who has not read, or, at least, looked over the Debates so as to keep pace with the current action of this Convention. And I apprehend, Mr. President, that they will all survive the reading of these Reports, although I would cheerfully vote to cut them down one-half in size and volume. But I am not willing now to quit in the middle of our proceedings here and stop publishing these Debates. I think we have a duty to perform to the people of the State and the people of the United States that ought not to be overlooked. The gentleman may have a different opinion of it, but that is my opinion. I would vote more readily to limit the time occupied by gentlemen upon this floor in debating questions, although I am opposed to that, for the present at least; but I shall vote against dispensing with the further publishing of the Proceedings of this Convention. Mr. LAYTON. I was not present at the time the Resolution was passed, in relation to the printing and publishing of the Debates of this Convention. How I should have voted, if I had been present, it is not necessary now to say. And as to what effect the reading of these Debates may have had on one or two distinguished individuals here, I know not. It might well be attributed, perhaps, to other causes, as well as the reading of those Debates. So far as I am personally concerned, it makes but little difference to me whether they are published or not. I have taken very little space in the Debates already published, and I expect to take less in the volume which we propose to publish. But I do find, in looking over the Debates, Mr. President, that the honorable gentleman from Butler [Mr. CAMPBELL] has about fifty pages, out of those 1,200, of very good reading. It is good reading-reading that, in after years, if I should live, I would be pleased to read; and I would be pleased that it should pass down to my posterity, that they might read them, although they could not hear the voice and the eloquence, perhaps could not appreciate it so well as if they had heard it. Yet it is fine reading. Now, then, my friend from Hamilton, and others, have fine speeches in the volume of Debates already published, and we expect, if you please, sir, to hear from them again, upon other subjects, which have not been discussed in this Convention. I therefore hope, sir, that the vote will be taken speedily upon this Resolution. If we discuss it to-day, it would cost about $700-one-fifth or one-sixth of the cost of publishing the Debates. I am in full sympathy and accord with the feelings of my friend from Butler [Mr. CAMPBELL], as to the necessity of economy. Upon inquiring of the Chairman of the Committee on Printing and Publication, I find that the cost will not exceed three cents to each tax-payer of the State of Ohio. And I will ask, how much rent, how much meat, how much necessaries of life, those three cents would buy? I have heard of a three-cent man-Ben Butler, I believe it was. WEDNESDAY, There were other men in that Congress who have returned the three cents, and I presume it did but little good in relieving the distress of the country; and I think the three cents that the publication of these Debates will cost, would do but little good to the poor. I shall, therefore, at this stage of the proceedings, if you please, sir, vote against the adoption of this Resolution. Mr. WHITE, of Brown. This is a question, I think, probably, the Convention has not fully considered, and upon which we ought not to act precipitately. I, therefore, move that we take a recess. The motion was not agreed to. Mr. MULLEN. Unlike my friend, the gentleman from Auglaize [Mr. LAYTON], I was present at the time the Resolution was passed for the publication of the Debates of this Convention. I voted for that, Mr. President. I have found no reason to regret the vote that I recorded on that occasion. I will ask you, Mr. President, and ask this Convention, what reason can be assigned for the refusal to publish the Debates of this Constitutional Convention? Every State of this Union, so far as I have been informed, have uniformly, and without a single exception, published the Debates of their Constitutional Conventions. I ask you, Mr. President, why the Debates of the Constitutional Convention of the great State of Ohio should be suppressed; why they should not be published? Is it not a matter of importance, a matter of interest to every citizen of the State of Ohio? Then, I say, can there be a single substantial reason suggested why the Debates of this Convention should not be published? By the former action of this Convention, we have employed a Reporter by contract, to report the Proceedings of this Convention, as well as entered into a contract for the printing of the Proceedings of this Constitutional Convention. I ask gentlemen of the Convention, how are we to get rid of these contracts? Can we, by one fell swoop, by a Resolution of this Convention, rid ourselves of the responsibility of a solemn contract made with the Reporters and Printers in this kind of a proceeding? Why, it is unprecedented, and, so far as I am concerned, I do not desire to take the responsibility of obliterating, by my vote, the contract made between the Convention and these parties. My friend, the gentleman from Butler [Mr. CAMPBELL}, says, God pity the judge who should pore over the Debates of the Constitutional Convention to find any light in order to the understanding of the various articles and sections of the Constitution. That may be so. If so, it surely is a deplorable condition; but I ask, do the members of this Convention appreciate the position they occupy? If they appreciate the position they occupy, as representatives from the various counties of the State, in order to throw light upon the various propositions and sections that are debated in this Convention; if the Debates ought to bear emphatically and specifically upon every section and article of this Constitution, they ought to throw some light upon the very section and article. I ask you, Mr. President, if it will not prolong the deliberations of this Constitutional Convention to say, that the Debates shall not be published? Will not gentle MULLEN, ROWLAND, WHITE of B., HOADLY. DECEMBER 3, 1873.] men make long-winded speeches, from time to time, upon the different propositions that will be introduced, knowing that they will not be held responsible upon the record for anything they may say in debate; but, if they shall be held responsible by the record, then, they will have some consideration for their conduct and their speeches. Now, as a matter of economy-I know, Mr. President, that economy should be practiced by this Convention, and by every citizen in official life in the State of Ohio; but speak of economy in the publication of the Journals and Debates of this Convention, what does it amount to compared with the importance of the subject matter to be imparted to each citizen of the State? It does not amount to a fig. I am in favor, then, of carrying out the contract as we have made it with the Reporter and Printer, and if the Debates then string out to an extraordinary length, it is not because of the rule, but the fault of the members who have uselessly and unnecessarily taken up the time of the Convention in the discussion of the various articles and sections that have been introduced into the Convention. I hope the Resolution of the gentle man will fail. the question is on the reference of the Resolution to the Committee on the Judicial Department. Mr. WHITE, of Brown. That is the question I am speaking to, to show the necessity and propriety of a reference to the Judiciary Committee, that they may investigate and report whether or not we are under legal obligation to carry out and fulfil this contract, and whether, if we repudiate it and refuse to perform it upon our part, we would not be responsible in damages to these parties, for whatever might accrue to them in consequence of failure of performance on our part. For this reason, I shall Vote for the reference, and hope that it will be referred, and that we may have a Report upon it. Mr. ROWLAND. I have added something to my motion to refer. The PRESIDENT. The gentleman desires to amend, so that the motion will be to refer the Resolution to the Committee on the Judicial Department, with instructions to report as to the right of this Convention to cancel the contracts under which the Debates are reported and published. Mr. HOADLY. Is it in order to move to amend that motion, by inserting the words "on Friday next?" The PRESIDENT. It is now in order to amend. Mr. ROWLAND. As there seems to be some doubt as to whether we have a right to rescind such a contract, I move the reference of this subject to the Committee on the Judicial Department. I want to say, in support of that motion, Mr. HOADLY. I move to amend by insertthat when it shall become an open question as ing the words, "on Friday next," as the time to whether we have a right to change this con- when the Committee shall report. The object tract, members may vote differently from what of the amendment is this: This matter has been they would if the question were unsettled. before the minds of this Convention ever since The reference, I think, would be proper, to the last summer, and the gentleman from Butler Committee on the Judicial Department, to ascer- [Mr. CAMPBELL] gave notice on one of the last tain whether we can legally rid ourselves of the days of the Convention, that he would press contract we have made. If they report that we this to a vote on one of the early days of this can do so, the question being then stripped of adjourned session. It is not a new matter. It its legal difficulties, I shall be ready to consider is not a matter sprung upon us. This matter is it in the light of expediency and economy. in print and has been circulated among all the Mr. WHITE, of Brown. I did not desire, at members; and furthermore, it would be very this time, to vote upon this question, for the unjust to the Reporter to go on with the prepreason that it was one that I have given no con- aration of another volume to any extent, and sideration to whatever, except such as I have unjust to the Convention, and then break off. been able to give it since the calling up of the The Chairman of the Judiciary Committee is Resolution this morning; but it does seem to not in the city, and there is danger of delay in me that we ought not, upon this question, waiting for him to assemble the Committee, to act precipitately. The Legislature of the unless some time is fixed at which they shall State of Ohio, when they passed the act pro-report, and that a short time, so that we may viding for the organization of this Convention, have the matter speedily before us, whether it gave to it power, in express terms, to provide for is, in the opinion of that Committee, an open the publication of its Debates. In pursuance of question or not. If it is an open question, Mr. the power thus given, this Convention has President, my views were expressed at the beentered into a solemn obligation by which it ginning of the session, in the Minority Report has undertaken, for a consideration expressed, that I then made, adverse to the publication of to pay for the reporting and the publication of our Debates; and if I can be permitted, without the Reports of the Convention. Now, I believe a violation of the contract, to vote again as I that public bodies and political entities are just voted then, I desire to do it. But I desire to do as much under moral obligation to observe their it soon, if I do it at all, because, as every day contracts as individuals, and not only under passes, I feel that there will be more and more moral obligation to observe them, but under likelihood of injustice to the Officers of this Conlegal obligation to do so, and having the power vention who may be dismissed by that Resoluto make this contract, and having made it, it tion, if it is not now speedily acted upon. is not within the competency of one of the contracting parties to repudiate it at its own election and at its own will. The PRESIDENT. The Chair will state to the gentleman from Brown [Mr. WHITE] that V.II-2 Mr. HOADLY's amendment was accepted by Mr. ROWLAND. The PRESIDENT. The question is now on agreeing to the motion as amended. The motion was agreed to, and the reference EWING, TOWNSEND, ADAIR, HOADLY, ROOT, ETC. [WEDNESDAY, was made to the Committee on the Judicial De- cuss. The question is, then, upon the Resolupartment. tion of the gentleman from Hamilton [Mr. HOADLY]. Mr. EWING. A professional engagement unexpectedly calls me immediately to Washington, and I am compelled, therefore, to ask of the Convention an indefinite leave of absence. Said leave was granted. Mr. TOWNSEND. I move that the Convention now take a recess until half-past two o'clock this afternoon. Mr. HOADLY. If it is in order, I offer the following Resolution: Resolution No. 126: Resolved, That until otherwise ordered, the Convention will hold two sessions daily, commencing at ten A. M. and half past two P. M., respectively. Mr. ROOT. I desire to discuss that Resolu Mr. ROOT. I am opposed to the Resolution in its present form, and desire to offer an amendment, and I want a little time to prepare it; but I will indicate now, as I have the floor, precisely what change I desire to make. I am opposed to two sessions a day, for the reason that it is a waste of time and a hindrance to business. I have an amendment to this effect, which would have the effect of striking out the Resolution and providing that the Convention shall meet at ten o'clock in the morning, and that no motion for a recess, except by unanimous consent, shall be entertained before four o'clock P. M. What will be the consequence? Why, sir, we shall sit here from ten to four-a continuous session of six hours, worth more than two sessions amounting to seven hours-and you cannot get seven hours with two sessions a day. If we meet at nine o'clock, as some of my industrious friends suggest, we will not have a quorum half the time. The very earliest hour you can put it at will be half-past nine. You can sit until half-past twelve, and take your recess until two o'clock-I am putting it at the very shortest-and sit from two o'clock until half-past five. You then get six hours and a half, with an intermission, and six hours of continuous session is worth more than six hours and a half or seven hours divided into two sessions. Again, if we meet at ten o'clock, gentlemen who rise tolerably early and get their breakfast by eight, will have time to dispose of their correspondence—that is, such as must be attended to immediately (and there is a great deal of that kind,) and we can then If there is a necessity for it, we can take a recess meet here and get through with the day's work. Mr. HITCHCOCK. I move to suspend the arily. I contemplate but one session a day of until evening, but not before four o'clock ordinRule in order that the Resolution may be consid-six hours' continuous labor, and then we shall tion. The PRESIDENT. The Resolution will lie upon the table under the Rule. ered at this time. Mr. HOADLY. The gentleman from Erie [Mr. Roor] is willing to withdraw his notice to discuss. Mr. ROOT. I wish to offer an amendment to the Resolution, and I am not at present prepared to do so. The PRESIDENT. The question is upon the motion of the gentleman from Geauga [Mr. HITCHCOCK] to suspend the Rule under which Resolutions are required to lie over for one day on notice of discussion. Mr. ROOT. I am opposed to holding two sessions a day The PRESIDENT. The question now is upon the motion to suspend the Rule. Mr. CAMPBELL. I suggest to the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Roor] that he withdraw his opposition to the consideration of the Resolution at the present time, and propose his amendment, which I understand to be a proposition for one session a day. We might as well settle that point at once. Mr. ROOT. When the gentleman from Geauga [Mr. HITCHCOCK] moved to suspend the rule, I was about to assent. I am willing to take it up and consider it now. The PRESIDENT. The gentleman from Erie [Mr. RooT] withdraws his notice to dis adjourn and go to dinner. Your dinner will be over by five o'clock, and from five to gentlemen's bed-time, say eight or nine or ten, you will expedite your business. will have time to work on Committees, and you This idea of there being any economy in having two sessions a day is a mistake, in my opinion. We always know that a recess causes a lapse or break in the tide of our business, and we lose, at the very least, half an hour thereby. But, gentlemen say that it will put off dinner until four o'clock. Very well, that is a good time for gentlemen to take their dinner. Half-past four is better still. We have got to get into habits of public bodies. We cannot begin, as a man that works at a handicraft, early in the morning. We need time to dispose of our correspondence in the morning and to take some exercise. We meet here and hold a session of six hours, and then if the gas accumulates to such a degree that it must be let off, we may meet in the evening, and we shall be better prepared to meet in the evening and assist at such a serious operation as that, if we adjourn at four, than if we adjourn at half-past five. My friend from Butler, [Mr. CAMPBELL], has drawn up the following amendment, which I will offer: DECEMBER 3, 1873.] ROOT, CUNNINGHAM, Carbery, CAMPBELL, BABER. "That until otherwise ordered, there shall be but one session daily, beginning at ten o'clock A. M., and a motion to take a recess before four o'clock P., M. shall not be in order, except by unanimous consent." been adopted At his hotel they are very accommodating, and they will transfer the dinner-hour, as far as the members of the ConvenI wish to add one word to what I have said: all board at his hotel, we shall experience no tion are concerned; and it may be, if we shall that is, with reference to the objection that gen- inconvenience. But I understand that the tlemen may raise that it puts off the dinner hour members of the Convention are located in varito too late a time in the day. I believe that af- ous places, and but few at any one place. I ter dinner sessions are not happy either in de- reckon there are scarcely enough of us at any liberative bodies or any other bodies that have one place to dictate the dinner hour to the proserious business to dispose of. It is better to at-prietors of the hotels. I believe, if it could be tend to such business before we adjourn and be arranged conveniently, that the gentleman happy. Gentlemen will soon fall into the habit from Erie [Mr. ROOT] would be correct. I beof getting their breakfasts as late as eight o'-lieve he is right in this, as he is in almost everyclock, instead of getting up at half-past six, as thing he says before the Convention, that it they do at home. They can very easily bring would be better if we were to have one continit down to nine, and the man who has eaten an ordinary breakfast at eight or nine o'clock will uous session of six hours, than two sessions not suffer from starvation before half-past four, unless we determine to do without dinner. So per day; but I do not believe we can have it so, and it will save us from coming here more than far as the gentleman from Allen is concerned, it once, ordinarily, and if we have an uninterrupt- is too long a stretch from breakfast to supper. ed session we can expedite our business and The people of Cincinnati have fixed habits upon have much less trouble. When we meet we their matter of the hours for meals, so that in shall have a quorum, and as long as we are trans order to make a success of the plan of the genacting important business, we shall continue to tleman from Erie, it will be necessary for the have a quorum until we adjourn. Convention to accomplish the very trifling matter of regulating the dinner-hour for the city. I contemplate that we may occasionally have a recess; but the Resolution provides that a motion for a recess shall not be in order before four o'clock, so that if we find that we have got through with our day's work by four o'clock we shall adjourn instead of taking a recess. I commend this to the careful consideration of the members of the Convention. It has been my fortune to have seen something of the operation of divided sessions, and all my experience, and I believe the experience of others who know anything about holding single sessions, is, that they are much better than divided sessions. If we adjourn by four o'clock in the afternoon, we shall not have our dinner at an unsuitable hour. Gentlemen may apprehend some difficulty at the hotels, for the reason that they generally put their dinner-hour earlier in the afternoon; but I think there is scarcely a hotel at which any of the members board, where there are not enough to control the dinner-hour, so far as they are concerned. I know at the hotel at which I stop, whilst their rule is to have dinner over at three, we can have our dinner at four, or half-past four, just as well, and I presume it will be found so at all the other stopping places. Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I offer the following amendment to the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. ROOT]: The SECRETARY read: "And this Convention orders and directs that the dinner hour at the hotels and boarding houses of this city be fixed at four o'clock." ment proposed by Mr. CUNNINGHAM, a division Upon the question of agreeing to the amendwas demanded. Mr. CARBERY. I arise to a point of orundertakes to control what is not within the der. I object to the amendment, because it province of the Convention to control, and it will throw ridicule upon the original Resolution. The amendment is not germain to the subject matter of the Resolution offered by the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Roor]. Mr. CAMPBELL. I call for the yeas and nays on the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Allen, [Mr. CUNNINGHAM]. The PRESIDENT. The Chair is of the opinion that the point of order is well taken. The amendment is not germain to the original Resolution. The question is upon the substitute offered by the gentleman from Erie, [Mr. Root], to the Resolution offered by the gentleman from Hamilton [Mr. HOADLY]. The SECRETARY will read the substitute. The SECRETARY read: daily, beginning at ten o'clock A. M.; and a motion to "Until otherwise ordered, there shall be but one session take a recess before four o'clock shall not be in order, except by unanimous consent." Mr. CAMPBELL. I will ask the gentleman from Erie, [Mr. Roor], to modify his amendment, so that a motion for a recess may be made at three o'clock. Mr. ROOT. I am quite content to strike out "four," and insert " three." Mr. BABER. In all seriousness, it does ap The PRESIDENT. Is that to come in at the pear to me that it would not be well for this end of the Resolution? Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I desire to say that that amendment is offered for the purpose of meeting the difficulty that perhaps most of the members will encounter when this Resolution of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Roor] has Convention to depart from the rule that prevails in legislative bodies in Ohio. My impression is that when gentlemen get their dinners at the regular hours at which they are accustomed to dine, they will be in a very good condition to do business, and I hope we shall not depart from the rule. In addition to that, it seems to me that the committees are mostly through with their work, and the reason that applied while we were in session at Columbus, for hold Baber, Root, Pease, ScoFIELD, HALE, ETC. ing one session a day, does not now apply. I recollect the gentleman from Butler, [Mr. CAMPBELL], moved for one session a day while the committees were at work, and afterwards we changed the order and held two sessions. I hope the Resolution of the gentleman from Erie, [Mr. Roor], will not be adopted, and that we shall adopt the Resolution of the gentleman from Hamilton, [Mr. HOADLY]. I do not think we should change the habits of the Convention. Mr. ROOT. That is precisely what I was trying to effect, a change in the habits of the Convention. I want to make a home thrust at my friend from Franklin, [Mr. BABER]. I know how to sympathize with him. If you hold a continuous session of six hours in length, about one o'clock some members will be exhausted, about two o'clock some others will be exhausted, and about three o'clock still more will be exhausted, and we shall be without a quorum; but if you adjourn in the middle of the day, I will tell my friend from Franklin, [Mr. BABER], that he will see that those whom he supposed played out, will go out and suck wind and come in and give us another blast. Mr. PEASE. I desire simply to say that I cannot vote for the amendment of the gentleman from Erie [Mr. Roor] and shall be compelled to vote for the original Resolution, because I believe it to be right. While I concede it is in the power of the Convention to do a great many things, and to do them well, I do not believe they have the power to change the habits of this people, and as the eating habit is a very material one, I think it is essential that we should conform to established usages in reference thereto. Therefore, it seems to me that these long protracted sessions, that necessarily place our meals at unseasonable and unsuitable hours, should not be inaugurated here, and I cannot vote for them. Besides, I doubt very much whether protracted sessions are such as will result in the most good, although I have had but very little experience in the matter of deliberative bodies, and, therefore, will concede everything to the gentleman from Erie [Mr. ROOT]. It seems to me that when we have been in session two or three hours, doing our work carefully, we are better prepared to sit two or three hours more by having an hour or an hour and a half recess; and upon that ground I I think it would be very unwise to make a change at the present time. Mr. SCOFIELD. I move that the Resolution be referred to the Committee on Rules and Order of Business. For myself, I am not prepared to vote upon the Resolution at present, and I think the Convention will be in better condition to vote upon it after the Committee have reported. The motion was not agreed to. The question recurring upon the substitute proposed by Mr. Roor, it was not agreed to. The PRESIDENT. The question is upon the Resolution offered by the gentleman from Hamilton [Mr. HOADLY]. The Resolution was adopted. Mr. HALE. It seems that we are running out of business, and I see no reason why we may not consider, this afternoon, the amendment offered to Rule Nine; and I, therefore, move to suspend the Rules in order that we may take up the amendment and consider it. [WEDNESDAY, Mr. BABER. There has been no amendment offered as yet. I gave notice of intention to offer an amendment. I object to taking up the matter at the present time, as I have offered no amendment. I think the best thing that this Convention can do will be to adjourn and allow the Sergeant-at-Arms to fix our papers upon our tables. Mr. MULLEN. I learn from the Sergeantat-Arms and others, that this afternoon is specially required for the purpose of placing papers upon the desks of members, that we may have a proper understanding of the business before us. I move, therefore, that this Convention adjourn until to-morrow morning at ten o'clock. The motion was not agreed to. Mr. HOADLY. I move that the Rules be suspended, so that we may take from the table Rule Number Sixty-Nine, as proposed by the Committee on Rules, and the pending substitutes therefor. I refer to the Rule limiting the time of debate. The PRESIDENT. Is there any necessity for suspending the Rule? Is it not already upon the table? Mr. HOADLY. I move that we take it up, then, and consider it. Mr. BABER. According to the calendar laid upon the desks of members, Rule Sixty-nine, and the substitute offered by Mr. HOADLY, were postponed until the second Tuesday of December. Mr. HOADLY. I do not like to be in the position of disputing the printed Debates, but nevertheless, that is a mere error and transposition of the date. The actual postponement was until Tuesday, the second day of December; and I think I will be confirmed in that recollection by the Clerks and members of the Convention. I am sure that my friend who made the motion will not dispute my recollection, for he and I have conversed with reference to it, and we supposed it was the first order of business. I am not sufficiently posted in the technicalities of parliamentary law to know how it can be got at; but as we have determined not to adjourn, I think we cannot spend our time more profitably than by considering that question. The PRESIDENT. If reference is had to the Journals, it will be found that the Resolutions were postponed until Tuesday, the second day of December, and the Convention will probably be governed by its Journal rather than by its printed Reports; and if so, the proper motion will be to take up the Resolutions for consideration. Mr. TOWNSEND. I would inquire whether this Convention has not the power to take business up out of its order by a majority vote? Mr. HOADLY. It is not out of its order. The PRESIDENT. The Chair supposes that all that is upon the table can be taken therefrom at the order of the Convention, by a majority vote. Mr. TOWNSEND. Would it not be competent to take this up, by a majority vote, and dispose of it, even if it had been assigned for a week from yesterday. The PRESIDENT. The Chair is of the opinion that the motion made by the gentleman |