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That Old-Time Religion: The Story of…
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That Old-Time Religion: The Story of Religious Foundations (edition 2003)

by Jordan Maxwell (Author), Alan Snow (Contributor), Paul Tice (Contributor), Gerald Massey (Contributor)

MembersReviewsPopularityAverage ratingConversations
241941,858 (4.33)None
I really need to do a better job curating my quick curiosity reads list...I thought this was supposed to be "how many Christian beliefs could be far older than what we have suspected." What we get is a sparingly cogent essay by Gerald Massey with some fascinating insights that quickly turns wild sensationalist befitting Charles Berlitz's craziest "theories", some more stretches of the imagination by Paul Tice and Jordan Maxwell, a good transcript of an interview with a Dr. Alan Snow, and a wrapup chapter by Paul Tice that has little to do with the description, rather a what's what of what's wrong with the New Testament canon with respect to Gnostics.

I'm not going to recount any on my notes on Massey, Tice or Maxwell... I wrote a lot of "really?" and debunked some of their nonsense. Example of Maxwell:
Today we have expressions when someone dies. We say things like, “They Passed” or “They Passed On” or “They Passed Away.” The ancients said “They Passed Over” (from one life to another). And so it was with the coming of spring, as God’s Sun is “Resurrected” from the Death of Winter to His New Life (in spring). This is why Christians celebrate “The Resurrection” with a Sun-Rise service at … “EASTER” … and the Jews, who knew “the greatest story” first, celebrate the same with their … “PASSOVER.”
Really? (Sorry...I did have that in my note) Not that the houses were passed over? Jeez. Most of Maxwell is that silliness.

So Massey was a writer who at least had put an effort in Egyptology study. Tice has no background that shows up in a any search pages several deep, and Maxwell has a Dutch wiki page. Maxwell is quite the crank from second hand accounts. And Dr. Snow? Ordinarily, this book would get two stars at best, but the interview of Snow by Maxwell is pretty good, so I bumped it. Still, for an expert on the Dead Sea Scrolls, shouldn't I be able to find something about him?

A few selected quick shots from the only part worth reading, and possibly rereading for some jumping off research:
Alan Snow
All the messiahs that are spoken about in the Scriptures, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and in the Old Testament, have been mortals and not all messiahs—you know, every king of Israel is a messiah. All the word means is “anointed one.” All the High Priests of Israel have been messiahs. They were all anonted.

The word “messiah” refers to men, not to gods, not to divine beings, not to angels.

Snow again
One thing that the Dead Sea Scrolls have taught us was that there was no absolute canon of scripture as we understand it today. Even the language was changed. If the Essenes found something to be obscure in any of the Prophets or the books of Moses, they rewrote it.

And
The Thanksgiving Scroll is a name that was arbitrarily given to their book of hymns. When you read through them, remember that the name “Thanksgiving Scroll” is again based on Christian thinking. It is a very nice way to describe this kind of poetry. I have read them all. They read like the Psalms of David, but they are more sectarian than our hundred and fifty Psalms. The Thanksgiving Hymns are extremely self-centered and very anti-foreigner and very anti-anybody who does not keep the law of Moses. They curse unbelievers. They curse Jews who have betrayed the law of Moses. They are pretty negative, but they are interesting. They are the kind of hymns and songs and poetry that you would expect from an extremist sectarian group that was very self-righteous.
Jordan Maxwell asked: Are there any miracle stories in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Snow:
No! No, none. Absolutely not one. I have not read any. The only miracle stories you have are the stories from the Old Testament. Those are old. Those are the stories of the Prophets, the stories of Moses, and so on. JM: Prophecies expect miracles, do they not? AS: Yes. They would expect miracles in the future. But there are no miracle stories in the Dead Sea Scrolls. You have what are called the Apocryphal Pseudepigraphic writings. You have miracle stories there about Noah and so on. but as far as miracles in the lives of the Essenes themselves, they were not living miraculous lives. They were not raising the dead.
And
So you have this huge similarity in language between the Essene community and the early Jerusalem Church that you just cannot get around. The fact that in the New Testament you never once have any mention of the Essenes. Even though they are a prominent group at that time in Judea, you never see them mentioned. Many scholars believe that they are not mentioned in the New Testament writings because the New Testament writings are the Essene writings. They were written by them.
I found that fascinating. I had a book on the Scrolls, unread yet but lost to a fire seven years ago. Time to go hunting for it. Also, two jumping off points: "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong and "The Gnostic Paul" by Elaine Pagels.

The book doesn't deliver as promised, and have of it is fringe nonsense anyway, but there are some good thought provocations. ( )
  Razinha | May 16, 2020 |
I really need to do a better job curating my quick curiosity reads list...I thought this was supposed to be "how many Christian beliefs could be far older than what we have suspected." What we get is a sparingly cogent essay by Gerald Massey with some fascinating insights that quickly turns wild sensationalist befitting Charles Berlitz's craziest "theories", some more stretches of the imagination by Paul Tice and Jordan Maxwell, a good transcript of an interview with a Dr. Alan Snow, and a wrapup chapter by Paul Tice that has little to do with the description, rather a what's what of what's wrong with the New Testament canon with respect to Gnostics.

I'm not going to recount any on my notes on Massey, Tice or Maxwell... I wrote a lot of "really?" and debunked some of their nonsense. Example of Maxwell:
Today we have expressions when someone dies. We say things like, “They Passed” or “They Passed On” or “They Passed Away.” The ancients said “They Passed Over” (from one life to another). And so it was with the coming of spring, as God’s Sun is “Resurrected” from the Death of Winter to His New Life (in spring). This is why Christians celebrate “The Resurrection” with a Sun-Rise service at … “EASTER” … and the Jews, who knew “the greatest story” first, celebrate the same with their … “PASSOVER.”
Really? (Sorry...I did have that in my note) Not that the houses were passed over? Jeez. Most of Maxwell is that silliness.

So Massey was a writer who at least had put an effort in Egyptology study. Tice has no background that shows up in a any search pages several deep, and Maxwell has a Dutch wiki page. Maxwell is quite the crank from second hand accounts. And Dr. Snow? Ordinarily, this book would get two stars at best, but the interview of Snow by Maxwell is pretty good, so I bumped it. Still, for an expert on the Dead Sea Scrolls, shouldn't I be able to find something about him?

A few selected quick shots from the only part worth reading, and possibly rereading for some jumping off research:
Alan Snow
All the messiahs that are spoken about in the Scriptures, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and in the Old Testament, have been mortals and not all messiahs—you know, every king of Israel is a messiah. All the word means is “anointed one.” All the High Priests of Israel have been messiahs. They were all anonted.

The word “messiah” refers to men, not to gods, not to divine beings, not to angels.

Snow again
One thing that the Dead Sea Scrolls have taught us was that there was no absolute canon of scripture as we understand it today. Even the language was changed. If the Essenes found something to be obscure in any of the Prophets or the books of Moses, they rewrote it.

And
The Thanksgiving Scroll is a name that was arbitrarily given to their book of hymns. When you read through them, remember that the name “Thanksgiving Scroll” is again based on Christian thinking. It is a very nice way to describe this kind of poetry. I have read them all. They read like the Psalms of David, but they are more sectarian than our hundred and fifty Psalms. The Thanksgiving Hymns are extremely self-centered and very anti-foreigner and very anti-anybody who does not keep the law of Moses. They curse unbelievers. They curse Jews who have betrayed the law of Moses. They are pretty negative, but they are interesting. They are the kind of hymns and songs and poetry that you would expect from an extremist sectarian group that was very self-righteous.
Jordan Maxwell asked: Are there any miracle stories in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Snow:
No! No, none. Absolutely not one. I have not read any. The only miracle stories you have are the stories from the Old Testament. Those are old. Those are the stories of the Prophets, the stories of Moses, and so on. JM: Prophecies expect miracles, do they not? AS: Yes. They would expect miracles in the future. But there are no miracle stories in the Dead Sea Scrolls. You have what are called the Apocryphal Pseudepigraphic writings. You have miracle stories there about Noah and so on. but as far as miracles in the lives of the Essenes themselves, they were not living miraculous lives. They were not raising the dead.
And
So you have this huge similarity in language between the Essene community and the early Jerusalem Church that you just cannot get around. The fact that in the New Testament you never once have any mention of the Essenes. Even though they are a prominent group at that time in Judea, you never see them mentioned. Many scholars believe that they are not mentioned in the New Testament writings because the New Testament writings are the Essene writings. They were written by them.
I found that fascinating. I had a book on the Scrolls, unread yet but lost to a fire seven years ago. Time to go hunting for it. Also, two jumping off points: "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong and "The Gnostic Paul" by Elaine Pagels.

The book doesn't deliver as promised, and have of it is fringe nonsense anyway, but there are some good thought provocations. ( )
  Razinha | May 16, 2020 |

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